Job Hunting in Times of Crisis

Meggie Palmer spoke to career guru Emily Liou about Job Hunting in Times of Crisis. Emily shared her wisdom on how to navigate job hunting in any economic environment.

I used to be a former recruiter. I hired and interviewed thousands of candidates but I was never able to give them honest feedback on why they weren't advancing or what they needed to really improve upon. And so, in 2016, I actually started Cultivitae a which stands for cultivate your life. Today, I help job seekers really master the job search process. I truly believe we were never taught the skills on how to build a personal brand, how to network, how to interview, how to negotiate. It's just so awesome to be able to help people just learn what they actually need to do to set themselves up for success, even more so now with our current economy and just the way that it's going. So, I'm excited to talk to you guys all today.

Meggie: We're so excited as well, Emily. I just want to get a sense from you. Obviously, the economy is struggling right now. And you know, there are expectations that unemployment will spike to some of the highest levels we've seen in a very, very little time. Is anyone hiring? For anyone who’s freaking out or lost their job, are people hiring? I think we've spoken about this offline and it's actually quite surprising that there are still jobs out there.

Is anyone still hiring during a crisis?

Emily: Absolutely! I think that's a misconception that when we're in a recession, everybody is unemployed. Even if you look at the 2008 recession, the unemployment rates spiked to 12%. Meaning, 12% of the nation was unemployed. But if you do the math, that means 88% we're actually employed. So, the same thing is happening now.

There are companies that are really struggling, for instance: airlines and hospitality. They’re really affected by the COVID-19 lockdown. However, there are also companies that are just really growing, excelling, and thriving right now. We're all bingeing on Netflix at this time. We're all shopping on Amazon. These are the companies that are really thriving. So, in any type of recession, we can't just sit there and wait for things to turn around.

Recessions typically last for more than a year, right? We're not going to be unemployed for more than a year. We're gonna try to figure out how to pivot. I actually have some tips for those who are watching. If you want to really take a look at what companies are hiring, I recommend two things.

One, even if you're not a recruiter, go ahead and go into Indeed.com, LinkedIn, or whatever job board. Type in ‘recruiter’ and the zip code or the city that you want to work in. What's going to happen is it's going to show you all of the results of companies that are saying, ‘Hey, we're hiring for recruiters right now.’ And recruiters are always hired to hire talent, not to fire talent. So, that's one good way of really starting to identify what companies in your area are really growing during this time, or are really ramping up their hiring efforts.

The second tip I have is just going into whatever title you are targeting. Typing in your zip code or city and location, go ahead to the filter section and go by date posted and check what's been posted in the last 24 hours or the last week because you will see companies are hiring. They're not just posting for the sake of posting. Just FYI, it actually costs a lot of money to post jobs online, especially on LinkedIn.

So, if you want high-quality jobs, take a look at LinkedIn, jobs board, and start looking at what companies are hiring right now and find that evidence. Find that proof because the minute you tell yourself, no one's hiring, or maybe people around you are telling you no one is hiring, that could be so defeating. And of course, you're not going to want to go forth with your job search. Let me tell you this: good people are always getting hired in any economy.

Meggie: Yeah, I just think that's such good advice because it's very easy to get stuck in this negative cycle of people having been laid off, asked to take a 50% pay cut, and then look for another job. I think there's a lot of people who've been furloughed, people who've been asked to take annual leave. Perhaps, you feel like you want to get out now and you might be coming from a place of fear, right? Because a lot of people have lost their jobs and a lot of people are second people right now.

But, I think your point is a good one and that is for good people. Fo good companies, they always need people. I think there's a lot of companies, PepTalkHer included, we are fortunate that we've been able to retain all of our staff and that our business is going well. But I think we're on the lookout for great talent who may be looking for jobs or who have sadly lost their job. How can we help support them? Who are those people out there who may be previously wouldn't have been able to hire because they had other jobs?

I'm really interested to know. We've had people who have lost their job and are about to step into that hiring process. They're feeling like it's been a blow to their confidence, or they're not feeling their best right now because of all this anxiety.

What are some steps that people can take to get into a good mindset to be looking for that next job?

Emily: I agree with all of that. There's always an opportunity and it's just really finding companies like PepTalkHer that are thriving and hiring at this time. I think, as an employer, it’s key to keep your eye out for talent. For those of you who have been affected by a recent layoff, the first thing I want to tell you is: one, don't look at this as a shameful or like you're wearing a scarlet letter type incident because it's happening across the board. Employers recognize that. They understand that. And, they understand that it's not due to performance-related issues or not showing up to work. It's really just due to the economy and things beyond our control.

So, I really want to highlight that because I feel that a lot of people bring a lot of shame when they're laid off, even if it's a mass layoffs. Acknowledge that it's 100% understandable and it's 100% going to allow you to find another opportunity that's in better alignment for you. That's one.

Then, two is: I recommend everybody to come up with a ‘brag list of the things either small or large that I've accomplished in my last workplace.’ If you've been feeling really unconfident with stepping forward in your job search because you're going to realize you have so much to offer, I think this practice really comes into play, not just for updating your resume where you can start to recognize, ‘oh, yeah, I did this and this and this, and I forgot to put that on there.’

Also, just walking into an interview and just stepping into that confidence that you bring to the table. I think a lot of us don't give ourselves enough credit and we don't recognize that all of the achievements we've had. Especially us that are really ambitious, we tend to just check things off the list and go for the next thing. But we really need to kind of catalog “Okay, here's everything that I did that I'm really proud of. And here's why this employer, whatever employers next are going to be really lucky to have me”, the more you can ground yourself into that and really trust, that is when you're going to excel and kind of thrive in your job search as quickly as possible.

“Just walking into an interview and just stepping into that confidence that you bring to the table. I think a lot of us don’t give ourselves enough credit and we don’t recognize all of the achievements we’ve had. Especially us that are really ambitious, we tend to just check things off the list and go for the next thing.”

Meggie: No, I love that you say that. And it's funny. This idea of a brag list is actually very similar to the reason why we built the PepTalkHer app actually. In the first instance, it's all about tracking your success regularly because I think often we forget the value that we've contributed to a workplace or how we've contributed to culture. I think the idea of having a brag list or using the PepTalkHer app, whether you use a notebook and excel sheet, a Google Sheet, whatever it is, it doesn't matter as long as you're tracking those successes on a regular basis. Because you never know when you're going for a job interview or a promotion at your current job. You'll need that data to back up your argument as to why you're the best person for that job. So, I love that. I love having a brag list.

If you don't already have one, you can use the PepTalkHer app. It's free. You can download it on Apple and Google as well. So, I highly recommend that. Then, what about other things? Should everyone be making sure their LinkedIn is up to date? Should everyone be on Twitter?

What are some practical things that people should do to be on top of all the ways that recruiters may be testing you out?

Emily: Oh my gosh, I love that you brought up LinkedIn more than you did the resume. I am a firm believer that LinkedIn is the ultimate tool to find your dream job and I personally believe it's more important than your resume because one it allows you to be found. Every single day, recruiters whether they're headhunters or corporate recruiters, they're actually looking on LinkedIn to find people who can fill the skills gap.

What I would say is LinkedIn absolutely is really, really key. And also, really building your personal brand and making sure that things are consistent with your resume, your LinkedIn if you have a digital online portfolio. Now, this isn't necessary for a lot of industries or functions like online digital portfolios. If you're a graphic designer, I would absolutely have one if you're doing something with the digital space. But you want to think about how, at this stage and at this time, do I stand out amongst other candidates? What can I do to really showcase what it is I can do, who I serve, how we can help?

The more you can include these on your LinkedIn, your resume, your portfolio, this is what's going to allow you to stand out as a candidate, and also be visible for those opportunities. I actually had a client recently who shared a screenshot of why she joined one of my programs, and it just blew my mind.

So, FYI, for those that don't know the Glassdoor stat shows on average for every single job posting out there, they get about 250 applications or 250 resumes. However, she sent a screenshot just from yesterday, that really highlighted how many applicants have applied to each job. One of them was like 2050 applications. The other was like 1786 applications. So, I always tell people just because we're in this economy now, your job search strategy shouldn't change. You still need a personal brand, your resume, your LinkedIn, your portfolios. You always need to network and really build that up.

I do believe now more than ever, you need to network, and build those referrals. Build those internal ambassadors, because how else are you standing out against the 2000 plus resumes that you're competing against?

Right now, we have officially turned into a company driven market. So prior to this, unemployment rates were 3.5%, which meant there were actually more candidate IDs, sorry for job postings, and there were candidates available. But today with the unemployment rates and unemployment claims rising, there is now a shift where companies have more candidates than they do have jobs available. So we have to really start thinking strategically how do we stand out? How do we beat out all of those other applicants and I can share so much that so much of it goes to building a relationship, building rapport, and building a connection internally.

Meggie: I agree with that because I think you know, sometimes people even before all of this has happened. But people would move to New York where I'm based and say, “Oh, you know, I can't get a job I've been applying on LinkedIn, I can't get a job”. And I just don't think applying on LinkedIn is enough. Like I think having a strong LinkedIn profile is so essential. But I think that unless, to your point, Emily, unless you have relationships and unless you're fostering relationships, it's so hard to stand out from the algorithm, right?

Like if someone's getting 2000 job applicants, how are you going to get to the top of that pile? So, I want to share one story from my fiance when he got his job. He was applying on LinkedIn not getting any love. And he eventually came up with a shortlist of companies where he would love to work, where he believed in their mission, he loved the work that they were doing. Then, he reached out not to the CEO but some of the senior executives and asked them if they'd allow him to buy them a coffee to talk specifically about excellence and issue and that's actually how he ended up getting his job. Would you believe it?

One of them took a chance, didn't have to but did. And the 15-minute coffee turned into a half-hour coffee which turned into 7-10 interviews and now he still works there.

For people who feel uncomfortable about starting to build relationships, what are great baby steps that they could take?

Emily: I love that story. I have one that I could share about my husband really quick because he also was applying online. Not asking me for help, because he was doing the thing… And then after three and a half weeks, he was so frustrated because he was customizing every resume, every cover letter like ‘I'm not getting any jobs’ and very similar to your fiancé. You know, he actually took it to LinkedIn and got really strategic on how do we find the companies that are hiring? How do you reach out to your future manager? What do you need to say to them? And he just started sending out these messages and ended up getting a job offer that he never applied to. The recruiter told him, ‘You need to apply now because we have to push you in the back system.’

Be personable

I would say for anybody who is unsure of how to reach out, I would say really three things like one: always be personable, customize your message, and really speak from like the heart. A lot of us, when we are reaching out to an employer, we do care about their mission. We do care about the company or the product or the service or reputation. So, what is it about that company out of all of the companies out there that made you reach out? The more you get personable with the company or paying a genuine compliment to whoever you're reaching out to based on what you see on LinkedIn or their social media, that immediately is going to build rapport. Immediately they're going to be like, ‘Okay, let me read the rest of this and see how I can help.’ Because the flip side of that is so many job seekers send out really generic messages that are just like, ‘Hey, I'm on the market. Does somebody like me?’

I always tell my clients, most people don't know how to reach out. So, when you're standing out immediately, you're separating yourself from the pack. And when they actually receive your message, they'll be excited. They'll be like, ‘wow, okay, who is this person? What do they have to offer?’ That's exactly why I always tell people to work on your LinkedIn first, because out of genuine curiosity, they're going to click on your LinkedIn message. That's going to be your interim resume. So, going back to the messaging, always feel like a connection of rapport right off the bat.

Summarize your background

The second thing is I believe that it's really important to summarize your background and what it is you can do for that organization. Where is it that you can add value because the flip side of that, again, is so many people are really generic about what they do: ‘I'm a project manager with five years of experience. Do you have a job for me?’ It's really important to make sure you know what you're highlighting so that the person who is reading that has the dots connected. They know exactly how you're connecting your background to the problem or the problem you want to solve or the solution that you're willing to offer.

Have a clear CTA

Then, I would say the third part of that message is really having a clear call to action. So many people leave it really open-ended like, ‘please let me know if you have any questions or feel free to chat with me if you want to have coffee, so I could pick your brain.’ Having that clear call to action and that very specific thing that you want them to do and really take action on is key.

I always tell my clients like give two options: ‘are you available this Tuesday at 3pm Pacific or this Thursday at 4pm?’ People need to be told what to do. Otherwise, if it's in the limbo, they're not going to do it right. And then the worst case, they just tell you, ‘I want to connect but I'm actually only available these days and times’ And then you work your schedule around that because they're doing you a favor.

Meggie: I think that's so great. We always do that in our emails as well when we're prospecting with new corporate clients who pickpocket. Give a specific time that suits and obviously, leave the door open. It makes it really easy for people to say yes.

Should you be trying to create your dream job within a company? Do you always have to look externally? Can you try and create a role that you would love within the company where you are right now?

Emily Oh, good question. What I would say is now more than ever, it's important to pivot and look for opportunities because COVID-19 has really shaken up every single business. Every single business is now pivoting in some way. And before, you may have been doing this one job and doing this one job really well.

So, you're in the event space, you're you used to be out, like on the ground, in-person with people, coordinating these big massive events. But now since everything's going digital, you can absolutely figure out what are the gaps right now?

We should all be stepping up as leaders and really asking, what does our employer need from us? What can we do to solve the problems right now that are happening and unprecedented? It's absolutely perfect for you to come up with a proposal: ‘You know, this is where I'm seeing, there are some gaps. This is what our organization needs right now. I believe that I could do XYZ for us.’ The more you can do that and step into that leadership role, your leaders are going to recognize you for that. They're going to remember that because a lot of us are scared and panicked and fearful and we're just trying to get our jobs done and hopefully survive. But, the more you can step into that leadership role and really propose solutions, you're going to not only secure a better job for yourself now but also in the future.

So, I'm 100% for creating new roles and really partnering with your manager and just saying: ‘can we do this? Is this possible and present those solutions to them?’

“There’s always opportunity. And it’s just really finding the companies like PepTalkHer that are thriving and hiring at this time. ”

Check out Emily’s awesome work on Instagram & website, there's a whole tab called free resources. Emily has a resource library where you can download 20 plus worksheets. She also has a blog and YouTube channel which are all on the website.

Emily Liou joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Set for Employment Success in Any Economy. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for yo...

Previously, we wrote something about How to Grow a Money Mindset and How to Set Yourself Up for Financial Freedom. You might want to go ahead and check it out.

Do you have a story to share or a PepTalk to give? If you'd like us to feature you, please reach out here.

How to Grow a Money Mindset

Meggie Palmer, Founder & CEO of PepTalkHer chatted with Denise Thomas, author of “Get Rich Lucky Bitch.” She shared the secrets of getting rich and how to grow a money mindset. Denise has taught thousands of women globally to overcome their old, family money habits, and step into a new, wealthy mindset.

How's working from home life going for you?

Denise: You know what, I've worked from home for 10 years now and I love it. I love being by myself and all of these things. But guess what? I've got three kids and a dog and my husband and everyone else are here in my little space. That makes it much, much harder. Apart from that, my life hasn't changed that much.

I'm seeing a lot of people freak out about being at home and figure out what to do with their money. Having lots of awkward money conversations at the moment, my heart goes out to everybody. Don't worry, we can all be calm and chill, and get through this together.

What's your jam and how do you help people?

Denise: My one kind of line tagline is to help people make money and change the world. And this is really, really important especially for women. When we have money in the hands of more women, it's been proven that we spend it in ways that really enrich our communities and raise the GDP of our countries. And really, we can change the world with that. That's the big picture for what I do, then going down into the micro means I help people with their fear of money, with their fear of having money, conversations with fear of charging people, of charging enough, and to really give women the courage to use the money to live a first-class life. Whatever that means for you. I do that through my books, and through my courses, and my money boot camp which is my money community.

Meggie: One of my coaches suggested that I read your book and found it really interesting. I thought that was pretty funny, I have to say. But the book has been really interesting for me because it's given me some advice. For example, one of the things that Denise talks about is that you should write down every time you receive money, you should write it down. So if you find two bucks on the street, or if someone sends you $200 for a birthday present, you should write that down. Can you talk a little bit tonight about why that's important from a psychological perspective?

Why should you list down all the money you receive?

Denise: What I find, especially for entrepreneurs, is that we compartmentalize our money. We judge money, right? We say, “Well, this is real and valid and this is not real and valid.” Now a really peppy example is someone who might be a new entrepreneur, and your partner has a corporate job. You might think, “well, their money is real and my money's not real.” You might think that the different categories of what you offer is real and not real.

If something comes really easily to you, you might think, that's not real money, or I really shouldn't charge a lot for that because it comes so easily to me. Some people feel like PayPal is not real money. Or, you might receive cash for something that you do, and you think that that's not real money.

Realize how much you’re capable of receiving

Here's what that does. It gives you a true picture of how much you're capable of receiving. Some people, when they start to do that, they realize that they're much more abundant than they thought they were. I've had people who've said to me, my goal is six figures, why aren't I hitting it? So it's like, “well, let's go and track your money.” Then they go, “Oh, actually, I am at six figures, I just hadn't quite realized it,” or realizing that they have been. It's like being in a relationship where your friend ignores you or treats you badly. That's what we do with money. Sometimes we go, “well, you're gross and dirty and you don't count”. And so from a manifesting point of view, why would we manifest more? Why would we attract more when we're treating money so badly in our lives?

Megie: Interesting. A lot of people have lost their jobs. A lot of people have lost a home, a lot of people have been asked to take pay cuts. There's probably a lot of people right now who are a little bit stressed out about money and are probably not in their best money mindset at the moment.

What’s your advice for people who are a little bit fearful or stressed out when it comes to cash flow and money?

Denise: I don't want to discount any of that. I think sometimes manifesting work or personal development work and feel really trite and superficial at times like this. Even though the work that I do doesn't necessarily get your job back. It doesn't necessarily solve all the problems. What it can do, however, is calm your nervous system down, so you feel like your brain can come up with the ideas.

For people listening, you have got so much creativity. You can come up with solutions. But when you're in the space, even the idea of calling your bank to ask for an extension feels way too much or sending an invoice out to a client feels way too much. Or someone actually says to you hang on, I need your help in blah, blah, blah, and no, you send me an invoice, that feels like way too much.

At the moment, if you're focusing on is survival, then it's more important than ever to calm down your nervous system so you don't get stuck in that fight or flight response. One thing that's really helpful is affirmations. Which again, sounds really trite at times like these but it can be amazing. It could be a really simple one and I want everyone to do this with me now. Put your hand on your heart, which is really comforting and grounding to touch yourself. Take a deep breath. And it might be the first deep breath you've taken all day. And just say, all is well.

“Put your hand on your heart, which is really comforting and grounding to touch yourself. Take a deep breath. And it might be the first deep breath you’ve taken all day. And just say, all is well.”

The first of these is a five-year note like everything is a disaster, and then you have to go back again. Because each time you do that you might go, you know what, maybe I could do this, maybe I could do that. Or maybe I can do that. And it's okay to be in, like the shit of it for a little while to be honest. But that's not going to help you. It's not going to help you come up with any solutions. So if you can just try something really simple like that of all is well, all is well, then it'll give you a little bit more energy to take action on something that might help you. That will help shift that mindset.

Meggie: What if people can get from that fight or flight mode into a more productive headspace? What do you think people should be doing from there? Like, once they see the opportunity and they can work out how to get through this hurdle.

What do you think are the best next steps that people can kind of put into practice from there?

Denise: I think it totally depends on where people are at. Some people are employed. Some people have just started their business, some people have big businesses with employees that they have to deal with. So, you know, the action is so different for everybody. But I think there's a real pressure at the moment for people to be super productive right now.

Write down all things you should be doing

One thing that can help is to write down all the things that you think he should be doing. And I would even suggest writing them in a couple of columns. So one could be things that you could do now, things you could do next, things you could do later and things that you're probably never going to do, but you just need to get them out of your head. Because it's all of the shoulds at the moment that are keeping people awake at three o'clock in the morning.

There's this pressure that we're all going to write the great American, a great Australian novel, or that we're going to learn to play the ukulele perfectly in the current age. And the impression is that this is just a jolly holiday where you know, we're all in. And finally getting that silence retreat that we've been wanting to do on our to-do list for five years. And so sometimes it's the uncertainty, it's the lack of clarity that's driving so many of us crazy. So get everything down on paper to get it out of your head. That's the most important thing.

And then you know what, I'm a path of least resistance girls. So if all you do each day is one thing on your to-do list, you could wake up and go, Oh, my god, there are so many things to do. What would be the easiest for me at the moment would be to update my resume on LinkedIn, I could handle that. Then just do one thing. And then you work your way up on the list of anything, the thing that you can face doing the most out of everything and don't beat yourself up. You know, when people say you've got to Eat That Frog first.

Yeah, do the bad thing. I'm like the opposite. I'm like, look at everything and go I cannot face all of those things. Know what I can do this one little thing. It's like having a to-do list.

So it's like you can procrastinate by doing something that's still useful. But not giving yourself the pressure that you're suddenly going to turn into this productive ninja because, to be honest, a lot of people, the feeling is really bad right now and feeling really down.

Meggie: The first chapter of your book Get Rich Lucky Bitch is called “Becoming an Amazing Money Manifester”. So I've got to be honest with you, I don't really consider myself like a woo-woo person. Like, I'm open to some of that stuff, but then actually, when I read your book, a lot of what you say really makes a lot of sense to me. Can you just talk people through what manifesting means in practice?

Can you debunk this idea of manifesting and whether it is woo-woo or whether it's practical?

Denise: Oh, totally. This is my favorite thing to talk about. And so I'm a Virgo. I'm into astrology, but I'm also like, super practical. And when I first found out about manifesting, I was like, “What do you do? Do we need that information?” Because it felt so out of my reach too? I was like, “Oh, do I have to be a really good person?” Like, do I have to just meditate all the time and be perfect. And it just, it didn't work for me. So I like looking at manifesting from the point of what is manifesting actually mean, right?

What would be the dictionary definition? And it is to make real, to make real. That's all that manifesting means is to make real, it doesn't mean that you have to chant naked under the full moon, which is pretty cool, too. That'd be really fun to be worthy of making things real in your life. And so by making things real, you can actually you can co-create that, which means that you have to take action to but there's no doubt in my mind when people have their mindset, right. So they believe that they deserve the thing. They are taking action towards the thing, and I love some woo-woo practices. I love it.

I don't think a dream board super woo-woo but you know, a dream board or crystals or whatever. If you want to think of it placebo to strengthen your belief that it's coming true. With all of those things in place and taking action, there's no doubt that synchronicity starts to happen. And there's no big deal if you feel like you've engineered those synchronicities, or that you're stretching and reaching for meaning within synchronicities. Because it's all in service of making your dreams real, making your dreams a reality.

And we know from brain science that our brain works in interesting ways when we give it a task. If you give it a task at night, you're probably going to wake up in the morning with more of a solution because you've given your brain a task to try and find the problem. And we know that when we put our attention on something like, “Oh, I want to buy this new car”, we know that our brain is searching for patterns. It's not that suddenly everyone in your neighborhood has bought that dream car. It's just that you're more aware of it. So we know this, we know our brain works in that way anyway, so why not reverse engineer that and do a dream board and train our brain to look for those opportunities. Because when we do that, we're more likely to take action on them when things come, when opportunities come to us because we believe that they are for us.

That's a really simple kind of view on my aspect. You know, my kind of philosophy on manifesting is, it's making it real, and you can do so many practical things to make it real for you in your brain before it's real for you in reality.

What's a good first thing that someone can do who wants to work towards manifesting more money? What's something that people can kind of start to do today?

Admit to the universe

Denise: Super, super, super simple. Everyone can do this, like literally today. Think about the amount of money that you want to either manifest or make in a year. This actually could be a really hard step for somebody I said it like, Oh, it's really easy. That might be a set where people go, I don't even like to say that out loud. Right? I don't even want to tell my brain that I want that. And there's a really, really simple reason for this. You think of every single birthday party you've ever gone to in your life? It keeps blowing out the candle. And then everyone says, make a wish, but don't tell anyone or it won't come true.

So, many of us don't even want to admit to the universe, even not even to someone else. But admit to the universe. That's how much we want to make. So if you're even stuck on that first step, go and read my book to figure out some of the reasons why you might be scared to even pick a number.

Set your goal as your password

The second thing to do which is super important is to change your password on anything that you use on a daily basis to your income goal, to your income goal. So you really do but you're going to be typing that in so many times. Today and the first couple of weeks that you do that you're going to be like, this is so unrealistic. Yuck. That's so unrealistic. Oh, yeah. Be like, hang on that sounds okay. Hang on. That sounds okay. That sounds okay. Maybe I could do that. And you might think it's such a small little thing, why would it make any type of difference at all.

But, you know, if I said she had to meditate 100 times a day, you wouldn't be able to do it. If I said to you had to sit and think about your goal for 17 seconds. That's what I've heard in a personal development book. If I said you had to sit down and think about your goal really hard for 17 seconds, 50 times a day, you wouldn't be able to do it. But you doing that action anyway. So why not layer in something that is going to train your brain to believe something is different for you.

Meggie: I love that and I actually changed my passwords a couple of years ago, not to my money goal, actually, but to a positive affirmation rather than just like, dog123. You know, I changed it to be like a favorite quote or whatever. But I love this idea of changing it to be money. A goal that you're subconsciously telling your brain regularly that that's relevant to your life. I love that. That's really cool.

Denise: Sounds so silly, but I just want everyone to do it. And I remember thinking one time, I had a new income goal, and my friend was like, What are you going to do first to manifest this goal? And I was like, I'm going to update my password. What? And I said, honestly, that is something that, you can just do so easily. And it doesn't hurt you to do it. So why not try it? And then you layer in other stuff as well.

Meggie: And what other stuff is useful? I love that tip. That's a really tangible one, making your password related to money.

Is there any other kind of like baby steps that people can take in everyday life?

Change your phone screens

Denise: Absolutely. So think about other things that you look at a million times a day, your phone screen, right so what's on your phone screen, and people can type that in if you're commenting on what's on your phone screen at the moment and some of you you've got useless pictures of your kids or your pets. Ideally jakey but for manifesting point of view, that's really valuable real estate because you're picking up your phone like 200 times a day, right? Easy, right? So that's really super valuable real estate to train your brain to believe something about yourself.

At the moment, mine has a goal, a particular goal for me about selling my next book, who I want to sell it to you how much you want to sell it for, and I've got a picture. It could be that you have a beautiful picture of your kids. There's nothing wrong with that. But you could overlay some text on it. Now that could be your income goal, or it could be a family goal. You know, you might have a goal to take your kids to Disneyland. Or you might have a goal to start a business or for your partner to come work in your business with you or you know, whatever it is.

Change your computer or TV screens

But if you're picking up your phone every day, you may as well have your goal on there and you can do the same thing with your computer screen as well. A lot of people have a lot of smart TVs at the moment where you can choose what the screensaver is on your TV. So you can change your screen savers on your desktop or on your TV.

You know, you can have your laptop screen say something differently login versus when it's on sleep, there are so many different things that you can do. Back in the day, when I was starting this work, I didn't have a fancy phone and I didn't have a fancy laptop. So I actually did old school. I created a dream board and printed it out as I created it on on you know whatever software I was using at the time, printed it out and I would put it in unexpected places. So on the inside of my kitchen cabinets, you know I would open the kitchen cabinet and go oh my god my dream board. I would have it when I had a job at the time I printed out and put it on my desk drawer. So every time I opened my desk drawer It'd be looked like I was looking for like pencils or something. But I was just like, I'll be there soon.

Dream boards

Dream boards were really popular probably about four or five years ago, people were talking about them a lot. And then I found that recently people haven't been mentioning them that much. And I think it is because we have so much visual stuff coming at us all the time that we can actually use technology for dream boards instead. An Instagram collection is just pictures of things that inspire you. But if you print them out, there's something different about seeing them in unexpected places. Yeah, you can have a Pinterest board that is purely about one of your dreams. There are so many different ways we can use technology at the moment, but don't forget about the old school ones as well.

I love that and actually one of my English teachers from high school, she used to tell us to print out our speeches and put it in like a plastic envelope and stick it to the wall in the shower so that while you were showering, you could see it and learn your speech and I can say something like that being applicable here. As well like printing the vision board, putting it in a plastic shape, sticking it to the wall in the shower as well, when you're washing your hair or whatever, it's kind of again, sending you that subliminal message.

I actually like to draw my goals in the shower theme, too. On your glass of the shower, well, you can use soap to do it. But I think what the point we're trying to get across is that you have to kind of bombard yourself with positive messages. Especially if you've got a really big goal that you want to manifest particularly now when we have so many negative messages coming towards us and you know, I'm there as well scrolling on Twitter and getting freaked out and then I have to remind myself, no, it's really important for me to protect myself and protect my energy.

So think about what you're listening to in your car. You know, have some positive podcasts that make you feel good. And then still listen to the new stuff, but just limit your exposure to it because, at the moment, a lot of us are watching it in real-time. Whereas really, we could catch up even once every couple of hours and we wouldn't miss a thing. But it's trying to have as many touchpoints as possible. And I like to have them as automatic as possible as well. So I don't have to think about them. I have pop-ups that come up on my calendar that say, “Congratulations, you've sold a million copies of your book”, you know, things like that. You can do once and it will just pop up again and again. And it will really really help you know, I love that.

Meggie: What's the best way to learn about the money boot camp and hear about all the amazing books that you're keeping on publishing?

Oh, thank you. So I’m @denisedt on Instagram and it's the same for all my social handles. I'm on Instagram probably the most rather than Twitter and Facebook. And I love hearing from what you guys are doing. I love it when people screenshot my book and send me the chapter that they're reading. I love seeing people's books with highlighted, post-it notes, and all the things, and I love seeing people's beautiful faces too. Oftentimes, people send me a picture of like my book, and I want to see a picture of you in my book, too. That makes me happy.

Meggie: Oh, that's awesome. Denise, we’re so grateful that you could join us to talk about those amazing practical tips that people can take to kind of help grow their money mindset, especially at the moment. We're really grateful for you taking the time.

“When we have money in the hands of more women, it’s been proven that we spend it in ways that really enrich our communities and raise the GDP of our countries. And really, we can change the world with that.”

Denise Duffield Thomas joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Money Mindset. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for your invite to the...

For top tips and help on how to make money online or tips on how to maintain an abundant mindset, you can find free resources on our blog.

You can check out Denise’s awesome work here on Instagram & website.

Got a story to share or a PepTalk to give? If you'd like us to feature you, please reach out here.

How to Set Yourself Up for Financial Freedom

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke to Kristin O’Keeffe Merrick on how to be the CFO Your Life. She taught us how to set yourself up for financial freedom, to calculate our net worth, budgeting for an emergency fund, and what to do in the current climate.

Meggie: Kristin, there's a lot going on right now. A lot of us have got a little bit more time on our hands as we had otherwise anticipated. We want to maximize this time and get our financial life together once and for all. What can we do in getting the ball rolling?

If you want to be the CFO of your life, what are the top steps that we can do literally today?

Kristin: These are my favorite kinds of conversations because I love to-do lists and I love action and I love using the opportunity of whether you're experiencing frustration or boredom for some people. What you can do at this time to kind of better your life?

Let's do a few disclaimers. First, I am a financial advisor. I am not a CPA, or an accountant or a tax filer. I have a lot of understanding and knowledge of taxes but I am not an expert in that. So, I can't answer all your tax questions. Secondly, I don't like to make recommendations on investing, but I am going to do my best to give you a lay of the land of maybe some things you should be thinking about. Um, so get your notebook ready and get your notes ready to Yeah, okay, let's do this.

Make an inventory

The first thing I want to talk about is inventory. Okay, so here we are, we're home. Some of us are trying to do our jobs at home and homeschool kids. PS there's like a 96% chance that someone walks through the door at any given moment, so just bear with me if that happens. They're super cute. But anyway, we're all kind of trying to do our things at home.

Some of us have had, unfortunately, a situation where maybe you have been furloughed or laid off some stuff. People have had to make cuts in their pay. Some people who are just freelancers or business owners and their businesses have gone down and I know how difficult this is for all of you. I have so many clients who have been affected by this. My sister got furloughed yesterday. Like there's a lot of people out there who are struggling. And so I just want to make this as friendly to those people and to those of us at home who maybe haven't been touched financially, but I think the first thing we'd have to do is we do an inventory.

It sounds very, like dry and like when I used to work at the cosmetic store, but you have to figure out what everything looks like. And the thing that I would say here is let's see if you can figure out what your net worth is right. So, net worth equals assets minus liabilities, which is what you own, minus what you owe equals your net worth. It's a pretty straightforward concept.

Figure out your net worth

But sometimes figuring out your net worth can be a little tricky. What you have to do is go through this, take it side by side, like if you ever took an accounting class, you're going to figure out your assets first. And your assets are your cash. Obviously, assets are any kind of investments that you have, those could be investments that you have in just a regular investment account, it could be investments that you have, in an IRA a 401k. An asset is your home. If you own it, an asset could be your car, if you own it, it could be your weird boat. I know everyone owns a boat these days, right? It could be art. It could be jewelry, it could be whatever.

There's a difference obviously, between liquid assets and illiquid assets. The most liquid asset that you own is cash, right? That's a barometer of liquidity and there's from varying different degrees from cash is how liquid or illiquid your assets are. So starting there. Figuring out what it is you have. This is a good time for you to be going through your accounts. Looking at your checking account, your savings account going back and looking at old retirement accounts, maybe you haven't checked in a while. This is also a really good time to be checking in on what's happened to your money in the last few months, which I'm going to give you a spoiler. It hasn't been great.

Good debt vs. Bad debt

So good debt and bad debt. The good debt in your life is generally your mortgage. Sometimes it can be a Student Loan depending on how crazy the student loans are. You have to kind of dig through and look at what your debt is, credit card debt, personal debt, and any kind of loans you have against securities, that kind of thing and you need to add all that up.

Now remember that when you're doing this and if you own a house, for instance, the value of your home is your asset, minus the value of your mortgage is your liability that equals the net equity that you have on your house. If you paid half a million dollars for your home and you have a $300,000 mortgage, you essentially have a $200,000 equity stake in your home. That is your asset.

So now that you've kind of established your left-hand side as assets, your right-hand side is liabilities, you can kind of figure out now what your net worth is. Some people have a positive net worth. Some people have a negative net worth. If you have more liabilities you owe more than you own, you have a negative net worth. So this is kind of part one is creating this little map for yourself and understanding where everything lives.

Budgeting

Part two is the B-word. So the next thing we're going to focus on is budget. And everybody hates budgeting. I hate budgeting, you hate budgeting, we all hate budgeting. But this is a really interesting time for us to take stock in the big question that we all have, which is where the hell does my money go? Right, which is a pretty fair question. And in non-quarantine life, our money was generally going to a lot of things that we couldn't really track.

There are things in your life that you can't change no matter what happens. There's your rent or your mortgage. There's your utilities, your phone bill, your overhead, okay? And we all can pretty much get a pretty decent sense of what our overhead is. The problem with budgeting is not your fixed costs that you know that you have to pay no matter what happens. The biggest problem with budgeting is the mistake of budgeting. The “I've had it” like, what? Where did I just spend $200 this week? I think I bought like a lip gloss and maybe I took an Uber and I ordered from I ordered out and now I have no idea where my money is. And quarantine life is an interesting time to be focusing on this because you can kind of start to say, “Well, hey, I'm not spending any of that money on these things other than maybe like takeout.” You are not able to kind of just spend mindlessly and this is a really interesting opportunity to kind of go back.

Cut unnecessary subscriptions

Take a three-month look back on what you have spent, where you have spent it, and focusing on things like subscriptions. I had a call with somebody the other day, who, after doing this product, this project, she had $496 a month in subscriptions, which was for every kind of streaming service, every new service. It was truly outrageous.

So subscriptions, things that can be eliminated. There's a lot of memberships right now that we're not using. There's just a lot of life that we're not living but being honest in your budget and actually accounting for things like hair massages, trips to like the nail salon. I know this sounds like I'm stereotyping you all. But I'm really not. These are all things that we spend money on that we don't necessarily account in our budgets. And it's things that we are not spending money on right now. So if you can be thoughtful about those kinds of the money that you're saving right now, and be more thoughtful about going forward, like you can cancel three subscriptions that you don't need.

Meggie: Maybe you don't need to go through your credit card or your debit card, and literally just go through because I've been doing that for the easiest way to see if there are any ways we can save money.

Do you recommend that people go through line by line and just cut?

Kristin: Yeah. Because what you're doing is like you can start to develop trends. When you go back, there has to be like three months look back at least because right now gauging your spending is worthless, you're not doing anything. You're not spending like you normally are. So you can't do a good job of your budget, right? So you need to go back, go back to do December, January, February, go back and figure out. You can take a good old fashioned highlighter and just go through and start highlighting different colors, different categories, and all of a sudden you realizing like, “oh, I don't really need to spend, $800 a month on my personal care.”

This is where you can get a sense of what you need in your life and what you don't and what you can cut out this second. Think about what you are not spending money on and where that money should be going.

Create emergency saving or emergency funds

There's no better time than now than to create emergency savings or an emergency fund. We're all living in a world where having an emergency fund is crucial, right? People getting laid off left and right. And so if you don't have money saved, this could be a really scary situation for you. So create this emergency fund.

If you have an emergency fund, then allocate that money towards other things. Start potentially thinking about investments, you could put that money towards retirement accounts, you can put that money in investments. If you have debt, use that money towards really getting attacking your debt. And you should always be thinking about attacking your debt, the highest interest rate first. So credit cards are going to usually be on the top, then you're going to have some kind of middle of the road. If you have any personal loans or things like that, then it's generally student debt. And then it's generally your mortgage debt.

Meggie: If someone, for the first time, attacks their finances, how much money are we talking?

How much should one save for an emergency fund?

Kristin: Everybody has a kind of a different view on this and my particular view is anything less than zero. I mean, anything more than zero should be your emergency fund. So don't stress yourself out about saying like, “Oh, I need six months of overhead, otherwise I haven't achieved a goal.” It's a nice goal to have. Six months of overhead is lovely, but don't whip yourself on the daily if you don't have that saved, what you should really be thinking about is getting yourself any kind of emergency fund.

Figure out how you can start doing that even if you are paying off debt, how you can divert whether it's 100 bucks or 200 bucks, a week, a month, whatever it is into some kind of account. And here's the trick with emergency funds. Put it somewhere that is not easily accessible to you and I don't mean like your mattress. Figure out a place, a financial institution that is not connected to your checking account because this is what happens. You create a little emergency savings account and it sits next to your checking account and then you’re like, “Oh, cute! I need you” and you just move it over and then suddenly your savings account is gone.

What you need to do is you need savings, and you need to move it out and you need to put it somewhere else. So that you're kind of creating almost work for yourself to get that money.

Meggie: We talked about trying to cut out any unnecessary expenses. We want to create an emergency fund, we want to pay off debt? What about like other things peripheral that people should be thinking about? Is there anything specific in finances that now is actually a great time to dive in and just sort out once and for all?

Should we be thinking about life insurance or income protection insurance?

Kristin: Let me kind of do a speed round of things. That should be on your list right now. First and foremost, if you haven't already filed your taxes you should be filing your taxes, especially if the government owes you money. If the government owes you money, you should have already filed, get your money. Get it, get it. So that's part one.

Part two is if you get a refund, figure out what you're going to do with that refund, this is an interesting time to consider investing. You've had an extremely, extremely scary move from basically the end of February till, a few weeks ago. We have made some moves back a little bit and things are starting to look a little bit more stable.

There are still opportunities. If you haven't made IRA contributions for 2019. You can still do that. If you haven't filed if you want to make IRA contributions for 2020 you can do that. That means money going into the market and that's money that you're not going to be using until you're an old lady or man. And that means that you can potentially take advantage of a kind of a pullback in the market. Buy some things cheap and take advantage of the inevitable appreciation of those things.

If you have or for somebody who has a little bit of cash on the sidelines and can't quite figure out what that next step is, then consider using that money and starting an investment account or consider increasing your contributions to your 401k, things like that.

Life Insurance is one of these things that if you have any liabilities, any large liabilities, whether that's debt, whether that's student debt, mortgage, even personal debt, you should have some kind of life insurance on yourself in the event that something were to happen to you that your beneficiaries are not left high and dry. If you have children, if you have a business, if you have a spouse, you should have some kind of life insurance. Life Insurance is not as scary as everyone makes it seem it's relatively affordable especially if you are a person kind of have decent health and a decent age, a younger age, it should not be a scary thing for you. If you are married, if you are getting married, if you have joint liabilities, you should definitely be considering life insurance. If you need any help with that you should get in touch with me. It is something that we do.

Meggie: You help people invest specifically, but are there any like automated tools?

Are there any user-friendly platforms for people who want to start investing?

Kristin: I would recommend that if you've never invested before, you should be going down the road of using a platform that has some kind of ready-made investment vehicle for you, for instance, like a Betterment or an Ellevest, they will have you fill out like a little risk survey and then they kind of tell you which bucket you should be investing your money in. And each trade a Schwab, a TD Ameritrade, all of those things are great platforms, but those are generally designed for people who are going to be creating our own portfolios. So unless you decided you want to become like a stock picker, you should probably go for your first time you should probably be going down the road that will give you some guidance and give you some healthy investment choices.

Meggie: If anyone hasn't invested with all of us before. And if you want to send me a DM @PepTalkHer. They've actually given us a code to share with you as well, which is super helpful. I think you get 50 bucks. Yeah, they're great like that. I'll send them specifics. But Kristin, I know that you specifically work with women like that is your niche as a financial advisor.

What is one of the top mistakes that you see women making that's really easy for us to overcome?

Kristin: A great question. The biggest problem that I see with women in investing is that generally, women don't take appropriate amounts of risk. And what that usually means is that they don't take enough risk. This has a lot to do with how we've been taught about risk in our entire lives or have we been kind of taught as girls so to speak. I could go on a three-month rabbit hole on this if you really want me to, but one of my goals as an advisor is to constantly make sure that you aren't making that mistake and you are kind of allocating properly.

For instance, there's like crazy statistics that women end up with significantly less money in their retirement accounts than men. Some of those reasons are because women get pulled out of the workforce. But one of the main reasons is because they're not taking enough risk in their retirement accounts. And so you should always be pretty thoughtful about what your time horizon is when you're investing and if your time horizon is 20, or 30, or 40 years, you should be making sure that you are taking more risk as opposed to less risk so that you take advantage of the compound interest of over that period. And compound interest is also one of my favorite things to talk about.

“Women end up with significantly less money in their retirement accounts than men. Some of those reasons are because women get pulled out of the workforce. But one of the main reasons is because they’re not taking enough risk in their retirement accounts. ”

Meggie: I'm a massive nerd and I love talking about compound interest as well. It is your best friend if you don't know about it. So the best time to start investing, as they say, is yesterday, and the second-best time is yet today or tomorrow. Thank you so much, Kristin, we're so grateful that you join us today. Check her out. She's @thegirlwhosavesmoney on Instagram, Kristin Merrick.

We host daily, 15 minute live chats with experts on negotiation, goal setting, handling work politics. You can check out more info on Kristin here.

Got a story to share or a PepTalk to give? If you'd like us to feature you, please reach out here.

How to Make Money Online (Time to start that side hustle!)

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke with Gumroad CEO, Sahil Lavingia on how to make a living as a creator. He shared his top tips on how to make money online. Sahil’s advice? Keep creating valuable and interesting content, build trust and an audience, ask your audience what they'd pay you for, and break it into manageable chunks and build as you go.

What is your Gumroad story and why you founded the business in the first place?

Sahil: I started Gumroad in 2011, nine years ago. It was a weekend project. I wanted to sell this pencil icon that I designed in Photoshop to my audience on Twitter and Dribble. And there just was no real easy way for me to do that. And so I built Gumroad just over the course of a weekend. It’s a really simple prototype where you could create an account, specify a product, specify a price, then you got a little short link that you tweet out or whatever so people could see it, buy it, get a little, receive an email with a download. And it was really just for myself to sell that thing.

Then, over the course of the last nine years, we've gone through a bunch of ups and downs. We were in San Francisco, raised a bunch of VCs, and did that whole thing for a while, got to process. So it's not really a startup, it's kind of a business, a software business that works. It’s profitable forever. Yeah, that's kind of the gist. And before that, I was an early employee at Pinterest.

Meggie: For people who are thinking about financial security, maybe looking to have different revenue streams. How hard or how easy is it for someone who doesn't know how to code, who’s never built their own website before?

How easy is it to start making money online as a creator?

Sahil: It's never been easier. I don't know if it's easy. I think it's simple. Like there is sort of a few things you have to do. You have to build an audience. You have to build relationships with people, you have to tweet or share content, you have to be interesting. You have to have some skills that people respect you for what have you. These are all sort of simple but it can take years. It can take years to get to that level.

But, if you have those things, if you have a skill set that you want to teach people, let's say you're an amazing baker, for example. You can totally go from just making stuff to making a living, baking basically, within a year, two years, really like you can build an audience. You can sell products, sell cookbooks, recipes, and do all sorts of stuff. And we've seen that over and over again, where people will go from basically having nothing to making a full time living selling digital products online, especially courses, ebooks, and videos.

Nowadays, with quarantine, we're not seeing as much of the in-person stuff but you know, before it was like a lot of events and workshops and stuff as well.

Meggie: Interesting. We've had a question come through from a woman called Mama's bear on Instagram, and she's saying that she wants to start to develop that income online as motivational speaking and blog. What are the steps that people should take? Where do you start if you want to be here now during COVID-19 quarantine, and in 12 months’ time you want to have some income coming in?

What are the steps to take if you were starting that journey from scratch?

Putting out content

Sahil: Again, putting out a lot of content, that's super, super, super important, right? So and it also just makes you better. Just producing a lot of content makes you more interesting. It will teach you what you don't know when you have to learn in order to teach people. So start sharing a lot of content and then put it everywhere, put it wherever you can.

Even when I write a post still, I mean, I have a pretty large audience, mostly on Twitter. But you know, I'll spend half a day every time I write a blog post. Post about it on Hacker News, on Reddit, tweet about it, share it with a bunch of friends, and like just doing the work.

I think a lot of people think that this happens organically that you just tweet and share and you’ll build an audience and right then you can make like six figures a year. It's a lot more strategic than that. It requires hard work to build an audience, DM people, reply to all your mentions, like it. And hopefully, you want to do it right like these are things that hopefully people are excited about. Engaging with my audience and teaching people but once you do that, you know you spent a year to build that audience, you'll end up with thousands of people that love your work, respect you, basically want to give you money if you had a way to do that.

Building an audience

And so the actual selling stuff, I think a lot of people do that too soon. It's really about building an audience, building a community, being an interesting person that people respect a lot. And then you can literally just say, “Hey, I would like to make money on this so I can spend more time doing this. There's something wrong with that. What would you pay for? Do you want me to do coaching you want me to do workshops? You want me to do a video course you want me to do an E-book?

I had a friend who had no social audience a year ago. Now, he has like 26,000 Twitter followers, and he's just started using Gmail at Christmas. So literally four months ago, and today he's made $100,000 on Gumroad. In four months, he's made 100K.

And this is not from zero like this isn't from one platform to another. He didn't even have any social media up until one year ago, I think February of last year. So 14 months, he wrote a really great post on leaving Amazon to sort of going full time on his own that went viral on Medium and gained like 10,000 followers. From that he wrote, like a few more posts and then he asked his audience, like, what do you want from me and people said, "You know, AWS is this crazy thing. I'd love to understand it.” So he wrote a book with a friend, spent a day a week over like the course of a month or two, writing this book. And you know, it's like 170 pages or something, sold it for like 30 bucks, 40 bucks, and made you know, 80 grand off of this book. You know, he spent 40-50 hours in it that requires work.

Share stuff constantly and get feedback

The cool thing is he already had an audience. He was constantly writing the book, he was sharing stuff, getting feedback, it was an ongoing thing. And so like, I would treat the blog like that, or the blog is almost like the ongoing research for this thing. And you can even tell people like “By the way, this is all going to be part of this project I'm working on. It comes out in three months.” And guess what, like all the people that followed you through that journey are much more likely to buy your book.

Then he did another video. He did a video course on how to build a Twitter audience. It's like an hour and a half he made $25,000 on a weekend, you know? This is like a forever audience. You could do this residual.

People think of it like “oh, it's a one-off thing”, but it's really not what we see. People on Gumroad every time we gain a new audience, members as you know, people follow them on Twitter all the time. You get 1000 followers yesterday. How many of those are gonna go by one of those two things like a significant amount?

We have a creator who does something similar. He makes $250,000 a month selling the same. He's making $2.5-3 million a year. His recent spike has gone up a lot in January. But since January, he's made around $200,000 a month. And that's just his Gumroad selling e-books and courses and stuff. And he's not the top creator. We have people that make a lot more than he. He's probably the top person who's so open, but we've had some figures and stuff.

We had someone who did a design template. A templating system made $800,000 in one day. You can do well if you have an audience that has disposable income and wants to support you. Again, those are the hard things than sitting down and you know, doing 40-50, 100-200 hours of work putting together a package for folks. That's not super daunting that part becomes relatively easy.

It's the building of an audience that is really good. You know, like him. He worked at Amazon for 10 years. So he has all this knowledge and insight and credibility, he knows that right? Because Amazon all you do is frickin write memos all day long. So like, build up those skill sets. The same thing with me, I wrote a Medium post and it had 700,000 people read it, but it was about eight years of my startup journey, right? No one can write that except for people like me who actually got through it, which is also why it turns out that's what people want.

People want eight years’ worth of experience packaged up into an E-book. That's what people are literally are paying for. So I think people that try to skip that, struggle because they're always looking for like, ‘how do I like to make money tomorrow.’

Giving Free Content

The problem is if you do that 12 months in a row, you never do anything. But if you just spent those 12 months building it on and just giving away content for free. Then when you are ready to do that thing, then it's actually incredibly, shouldn't say easy, but simple.

Like the Gumroad logo, it's G with the two dots that don't kind of go in this thing. And the reason is it's sort of the final step in the process, like making the amazing product. Having the audience connecting the dots. That's something. We can say, you know, I can have a webinar on YouTube or something, and it's like an hour and I go through every single Gumroad feature because it's a simple thing. It doesn't take a ton.

You know, setting up a Shopify store is easy, like Kylie Jenner makes a billion dollars or whatever. Right? But the Shopify store’s the easy part. Building 10s of millions of people that want her products and whatever she puts her name on, and curates and these sorts of things that's what's really, really, really valuable. And there's no real shortcut to that. That's what I love about it. If someone's like, “Hey, can I have your audience?” even if I wanted to, I can’t give it to somebody. It's not a fungible asset, you have to build it yourself from scratch. No one can give you an audience.

Meggie: We've got a question here from Marianne, who said she's loving the examples, but she wants to know the how.

How do you build an audience?

Sahil: What you need to do is create content, you need to build that audience and really the trust, which is what to say. Ask them. Basically, I want to be transparent about it. I think a lot of creators, I talked to creators quite frequently in my job. They don't like talking about making money. It's like it feels wrong or weird, or like capitalistic or whatever. Well, the alternative is you don't make money. And then you have to do ads or sponsorships or like these things. Why don't you sell your own products?

So, you'd rather sell somebody else's products because it's uncomfortable to talk about. Obviously, I'm sort of simplifying it a little bit but your audience would much rather support you if you are just sort of open and frank with them and like you to take them on the journey with you.

I tweet all the Gumroad numbers every month, like, you know, we just crossed 1,000,002 creators in April, which is the first time we've ever done that. And guess what, tweets like that go viral. People want to support that kind of stuff. That tweet probably alone got me 1000 followers.

People like it because they're learning how to build. People who don't follow you on Twitter, basically saw that Gumroad as a company for the first month paid out $10 million to creators in that one month. So obviously, if you annualize that we're talking over 100 million dollars that people on your platform are taking home, which is super exciting.

Meggie: So let's pretend, PepTalkHer. We have an audience across social whatever. We have programming that we run, we've got the trust, people to want to buy from us. What do we do next? Like what is the tangible step?

We have the content, built the audience, and trust, what next to do to start making money?

Sahil: I would say I would pick a product. So for example, a really great one would be like, who is your audience? I think a lot of people, they sort of think, “Okay, I have 100,000 people on Twitter, I'm going to have 100,000 customers.” No, that would be nice. Well, you pick what subset of your audience you want to be your customers. And so for example, for PepTalkher might be there are a group of people that are women that want to run social media powered e-commerce businesses, selling products on Shopify, or Etsy or something like that.

How can we teach them how to do that? How can we teach them how to build an audience? How does it get set up on Shopify? Basically, run them through the entire experience and you can do this with just blog posts, and Instagram lives like you don't have to produce all this content, you can be recording all of this. And then once you are at the bottom of every single thing you do to say, “Hey, by the way, we're going to release this as a video course or as a course on Gumroad or another service you know, sign up below and you know, you'll get an email and it'll be 200 bucks. But if you do it in the first week, it'll be 100 bucks or something like that.”

Over time, you'll have thousands, literally thousands of people that literally are getting free content, just tons of free value from you and then when you read and they're constantly being reminded “by the way this thing is happening in three months.” It's sort of marketing on one, right?

Say the same thing a lot

You have to repeat yourself. You have to say the same thing a lot. Saying at one time is not enough. People have lives that are busy. That's just the way it is. And so you do that and then you have you send out the email blasts, it's like, “Hey, you can get a lot of this content, it's already there. You don't have to pay for this if you don't want to. But if you want a really nicely packaged thing, you could run through it. Three, four hours, it comes with XYZ thing, it comes with this exclusive content, we're going to do a webinar where everyone can join.”

Maybe everyone that buys us gets added to this discord or Slack community or what have you. Guaranteed, you'll make 1000 sales plus each sale 100 bucks, that's 100 grand, right? That's how the math works. Like, this is how people go from zero to $200,000 in four months. That's literally the playbook, right?

The cool thing is that I can talk about it because it's not a secret. Like, this is how you do it and it's not bad. I could tell my entire audience, by the way, this is my plan, and they're like, cool, let me know when I can give you $100.

You know, I think sometimes in a retail model, people think it's like the business versus the consumer. And they're kind of like, the more the product, the better for the business in the worst for that. But it's just not really like that and really the value of that course. You could argue with it's zero because you could all get that content for free. Or you could argue it's like tens of thousands of dollars because the content that's the true value of what you're learning, and the sort of the accountability that you get from it and all these sorts of things, right?

The hundred dollars is kind of just like an arbitrary random number that is such a good deal for the people that want it. But then, you're not telling anyone to buy it. Well, I really think that's why we're so open is because just sharing this playbook, building, but really, it just goes back to building that audience, building that trust, finding your community, wherever they are, Reddit, Pinterest, etc. Build up that email list, build up that blog, and then put together all that content and then sell it. A lot of people even do it over time. They release a chapter a week, and they're like, “Hey, by the way, I'm just gonna update the PDF every week, and so you can buy it now.” And by the way, every time I'm incremental, it goes viral.

Meggie: A lot of people, creators, do they just say like it's too much? The 175-page book is too much?

Does the number of pages matter?

Sahil: 175 pages is actually not a lot. You could write that in a month. You could write three or four pages a day, you'll have 175 pages. There are images and blah, blah, blah, right. And so I think a lot of people, they just get overwhelmed. There's just too much and so a lot of it is just breaking it down. And it's always just building an audience.

First, worry about that and then start worrying about this other stuff. And then you know, it can go forever, I had a conversation with someone today who's messing around with Facebook ads for his digital products. So it's basically a 100% gross margin. He's spending over a full time living on the intercom on Facebook and Instagram ads just messing around with because he literally makes all his money back just he's figured it out… Facebook, so good and magical sort of retargeting and everything. And he's like you could just spend getting into that, right? It gets more complex as much as you want it to be.

But even something as simple as building an audience on Twitter, write Medium posts, start a blog, start a newsletter, and then you know, sell an ebook to them, enough to make a living and it just really how deep do you want to go?

We have people that make millions of dollars a year on Gumroad. Several of them now and you know, they've just decided this is a business. Now they have employees, you know, like, you can get just like YouTube productions, right? You can get more intense like there are huge production studios now that like just creating YouTube content. Yeah. So it just depends.

Gumroad is, of course growing all the time and adding features into the stuff you'll be able to do and sell. Gumroad is going to get crazier and cooler and better. Over time as well. So it's early days. That's the other thing is super early, like we're barely starting. The surface of empowering creators to make money. Living it's early days, even though it’s a nine-year-old company.

That's the way it works, right like that incremental growth of the product as well. And so for people who don't know, so on Gumroad, basically, let's say you've got an E-book or a course you can charge for that you can have the facility to have people pay what they think it's worth, you can have recurring payments, there are lots of different options. So it is a really great, easy, no-code way to kind of get those sales coming in.

Meggie: You talked about breaking it down into chunks that you can handle. We talk a lot at PepTalkher about imposter syndrome.

What do you hear from creators that hold them back like it's too overwhelming? Is there something else that holds people back?

Meggie: And yeah, like, what would I know to make money online? Why would people pay me? Is that another barrier?

Sahil: Yeah, totally. A lot of people think that they're not good enough or they're not qualified or they're not experts. I mean, that's enough. The reason I feel like I'm so open with the company is to show people like, “Look, I'm just me, like, I run a $10 million a year revenue business, but I'm just trying to figure things out. I'm just a normal human, that built a thing that grew over nine years. You know, it took a long time.”

I think most people are like this. I had a tweet a few months ago. That was basically, “one of the best things you can do is to meet your heroes, you will be disappointed.” You'll realize that they're just human beings that work really hard and have discipline and hit snooze and get up in the morning. And, you know, they just work.

I don't know, at least I had this idea that people that could code and work at Google were these super genius people and they have a miracle formula for success or something. But like not, I mean, some of them sure, but the vast majority of them are just normal people that have a job and they do it. So, the same thing goes with musicians and actors, filmmakers, and directors, it's just like a lot of work. A lot of iteration, a lot of feedback loops.

I think a lot of people, take their first draft, and they read Harry Potter or something. They're like, this is amazing. I could never write this. And it's like, of course, you can't write this, no one can write this. No one wrote this, like, JK Rowling did not write Harry Potter. She wrote a draft of Harry Potter and then gave it to people. And they gave her feedback. And she made it better. And then she gave it to her agent.

Dozens of people helped make that thing better and better and better. And so when you're especially near the end, maybe the first-second book is a few people, but you know, as the impact and the scale of it increases like, tons of people are looking at that stuff. You can go find early drafts of this stuff, and it's not nearly as good as what comes out. And that's not a dig on her at all. That's just saying like, “Look, we're all human.”

I can watch a great movie and think wow, that's like the best thing I've ever seen. But I could never make anything like Parasite which is amazing, but guess what? That's not the first time they shot that movie right? They've worked on this project for a long time and they've worked up to it too right it takes people often look at the best work and they're like I want to make that but it's like go watch the filmmakers first things right. Go watch his first couple of movies, they're not that good.

There's a lot of birthdays getting broken and potholes, and like every so often you hit something perfectly it's the perfect project, perfect timing for the perfect director. But often it's not and so that just comes through doing. It comes through.

I think a lot of people, they're waiting for the right moment. That's not going to come. The right moment comes by like you doing things and then eventually, you realize like that there are no moments that people working. It's like someone was waiting for lightning to strike. It's a compounding thing.

So it looks like this. This is what governance growth looks like. This is what Coronavirus looks like this. This is what compounding growth looks like. And what it means is when you're up here, when you see people up here, you're like, there's no way I could take a staircase all the way up here. But that's exactly right. That's how it works. It looks like this. And when you zoom in on that, it still looks like this.

You know, that's what exponential growth looks like. And so, just like Gumroad, growth has always kind of looked like this. But now when you look at Gumroad, it's like, wow, you didn't know volume back then. Back then I looked like this, too. It's just the numbers were a lot smaller.

So just like editing, a skill is similar, where you look at this master painting. And you can't imagine that but that person has painted 10,000 different paintings to work up to that, you know, that presented to paint trees and paint faces and paint this and that, and that. There's so much work that goes into this stuff. And so I think sometimes, especially with the internet, people like to think there's this assumption that maybe it's just like someone on their laptop writing a book and it's amazing. And it's like, no, there's a lot more that goes into it. It's not just like a musician in the studio or whatever. Like there's more work that goes into this stuff. So I think anyways, sort of long answer.

But yeah, I think imposter syndrome super real. I think everyone feels that. I think it's good to feel that because if you don't feel that you might be insane. And every creator I've ever talked to, every successful creator is always like, I cannot believe that I was able to do this. Like, no one has been like, “Oh, yeah, I totally knew I was gonna make $300,000 a year selling digital files to people on the internet that I don't know.” No one knows. Like, that wasn't even a thing you could do 10 years ago, or 15 years ago or whatever.

So it is literally unbelievable. And that's so that's why I think everyone kind of feels like they shouldn't be able to do it. But the truth is, so many people feel like they shouldn't, that they don't. And so if you do, there's plenty of space for you. There's no problem with that.

There are so many people just literally waiting to give you money. You just have to find them and then give them something special. They want to give you money. Make it easy for them to give you that money.

Meggie: I couldn't agree more. And it's such an amazing time to be able to make money online. And also, I think there's a lot of people right now who are thinking more strategically about different revenue streams and not wanting to be in a situation where they're beholden to an employer unnecessarily. If that's you and you're watching, we would really encourage you to take the step. Check out Gumroad, its amazing products, it’s easy to use.

Sahil, thank you so much for joining us. I'm really grateful to have you on our daily Power PepTalk, and loving all the transparency of your business on Twitter as well as sharing your figures, your growth rates.

Sahil Lavingia CEO of Gumroad joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss How to Make a Living as a Creator. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signin...

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How to Maintain an Abundant Mindset During a Crisis

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke with Loren Trlin on how to maintain an abundant mindset during a crisis. Loren shared her journey, her best practices in staying positive in whatever circumstance, and how she reframed an awful experience into an opportunity.

What is the best way to maintain an abundant mindset right now?

Managing our uncertainty through certainty practices

Loren: Yeah, so the biggest thing we can do at the moment is managing our uncertainty. So one of the two core fundamental human needs that we have is the needs of certainty. And at the moment, uncertainty has gone through the roof. And so we need to manage that through certainty practices.

What that looks like on a really, really practical level is daily ritual bringing back out the daily ritual that most people have probably lost if they're not going to work anymore if their whole schedule has been thrown out. So we want to bring some of that back.

Meditation practices

So for me, morning, meditation practices are non-negotiable. Simple, like a simple practice, like that, keeps me certain brings me groundedness, and then having some form of schedule really, really helps. And all of this helps to manage the uncertainty. And as soon as we manage the uncertainty, we can bring ourselves out of fight or flight mode. And then we can start to get creative, start to think outside the box start to come up with ideas for how we can potentially solve our problems. So yeah, that's the first piece of that puzzle.

Like maybe I should put my lipstick on because I haven't done that today. So that's like a good ratio. I feel like a lot of people are working remotely and they're working from home and they're not cycling or walking or getting the subway or the bus or driving to work right like this stuck at home. And so I think probably a lot of people are making excuses like I know I am for the reasons that I haven't created a ritual, not sticking to it. Like I wrote one down. I just did it for like two days, and then I haven't been sticking to it.

What are great ways that we can make it a genuine habit? Do we utilize this time to build up a daily habit or practice?

Loren: Yeah, so make it fun. We forget that we get to make it fun. Like I actually rearrange my entire home office a couple of days ago to shift the energy around to make it a place that felt really, really inviting. A ton of my clients has done this because all of a sudden, that corner of the house that wasn't really looked at ever has become a home office. So that's a great way like humans love to have it and something practical to do.

So if that means that you just have to create an office space for yourself, that's a really, really inviting, or meditation space where you can relax on your own. Take the time to do that, even if it takes a couple of days to do that.

And so fun is really, really, really important. And also creating, being curious bringing back energy of curiosity, asking yourself, like, I wonder what it would look like if I was to go do this. I wonder what the next version of me requires for this next phase of my life that we're all entering as human beings. I wonder how like now that I have the opportunity to completely change my life in many respects, I wonder what I want to invite in for the next phase of my life. And maybe that's something that is practical and simple as more fun. More laughter, less stress. You know, we've been very stressed out as a collective for a very, very long time, more ease, more simplicity. And so we should definitely spend some time reflecting on that because that's why we're having this experience at the moment.

“Fun is really, really, really important and also creating, being curious bringing back the energy of curiosity.”

Meggie: And so for people who I think I think haven't been able to create the headspace to make a home office, like I was, we had an email this morning from someone who's homeschooling three children. And she and her partner both have, you know, fairly intense jobs. So I think there's a lot of people out there who kind of just feeling overwhelmed. And I totally hear you, unlike finding the curiosity and making the space beautiful, but like practically for people who feel like that's just not an option for them, like what are some ways that people can kind of like really slow down and create that space, even amidst all of the kind of, you know, ups and downs that are happening right now.

Loren: Okay, and so it's a really good point because we will have time though if we're not competing anymore. Everyone has 15 minutes. And so even if it's a small act. Before I actually meditate before I get out of bed so that I don't have any excuses. And if that means that I just get up 15 minutes earlier, or get out of bed 50 minutes later.

The great thing is no one's chasing a bus or subway at the moment, in order to be able to do that, then we need to create nonnegotiables in our life. And so part of it is that it's not really a matter of time, it's a matter of prioritization.

“It’s not really a matter of time, it’s a matter of prioritization. ”

And I would suggest that anyone that you know, despite the fact that I've got a lot of friends that have like three kids hanging off them at the moment, and it's I know, it's like wild out there, that that that daily groundedness practice needs to become a non-negotiable not just for yourself, but you need to give it a higher purpose. If it feels like you can't justify that for yourself, justify it for your family, because your kids will benefit from you having 15 minutes to yourself. I'd be like sitting in the bathtub, we'll have a quick meditation, even if it means like journaling or taking a bit of time to tidy up your space. Everyone benefits from it.

So if you're feeling any guilt, guilt is always a sign that I am doing something wrong. Tell a different story around it. That's it. We're just storytellers, right. So if the story is that I'm a terrible parent, tell a better story. Tell a story that is sweet, makes me a better parent to a some of that guilt and any concern we might have around, you know, being able to give that time to ourselves because it's really fundamental. Yeah.

Meggie: Yeah. And it's, you know, it's funny, I think what I'm hearing you say is that like, it's really it's an excuse or as a story, we're telling ourselves if we're not taking the time for it. I actually read something on Twitter this morning. I'm trying to cut back on Twitter. It is an awful addiction for those of you who are like me and suffer from it. But the woman from the main character in House of Cards to anyone who's seen it, um, she put out a tweet that's like being retweeted, like 4000 times or something. And it essentially said, I guess I can stop telling myself that these are all the things that I do if I had time, right, because we now all have the time. And I don't know about you, but my to-do list is still pretty long. So that's obviously not due to a lack of capacity or time to do it, but due to the priorities that I'm setting.

“We are actually being asked to stop, pause and reflect. ”

Loren: You know, I had to actually revisit my to-do list a couple of days ago and look at it and be like, really? Does half of this stuff need to be on here? And the answer is no. Really. And so this is actually a great time. Like think about it collectively, we've been asked to stop, pause and reflect whether we realize it or not, whether we're still gonna, if we're still in panic mode, that's totally fine. It's a very normal response. But we are actually being asked to stop, pause and reflect. And it's the perfect time before things the pace lifts up again, which inevitably will for us to ask ourselves, is this actually important? Is this necessary? And is this going to be relevant to my life 12 months from now, five years from now if it's not taken off the to-do list?

Meggie: I just want to acknowledge the people out there who are really stressed right now and who have lost their jobs and who have family members who are sick. I just want to send compassion and empathy to you because you know, I really appreciate, and I can empathize that this must be an incredibly challenging time for a lot of people, and particularly businesses who are kind of struggling and require the economy to be open.

For people who are gonna find it hard to get their head around as their business has had to shut out, or they've had to sack staff this week…

Is there merit in people reframing this away from a negative and towards an opportunity?

Loren: Completely, and it's a really good point. So that's like the next phase and all of this once we have settled, and so I don't advocate pushing too much onto an individual if they're because whatever they're experiencing is incredibly valid.

So if you're feeling incredibly stressed out at the moment, and all of that completely valid, but then when we reach the point where we have come to accept our circumstances, we then have two options. We either continue the way that hasn't been working for us or we find a new way. And so that's a really important aspect. To this whole journey is that what's going to be required from so many of us and I went through this in 2011, I went through my own personal family tragedy, and my family nearly lost everything. And I went through a severe amount of stress for a good 18 months. And so what emerged from that was it I had to completely recreate myself and to create a whole new set of beliefs around the stories that I was telling myself that no longer serve me.

“Back in 2011, was that, you know, regardless of what life threw at me, I had the ability to decide that I was on a hero’s journey.”

So this is actually an awesome opportunity. Because once again, we're meaning-making machines. We're powerful storytellers. So the question becomes, am I going to tell a story that's going to lead me to an outcome that I don't want. And this can be incredibly difficult to wrap your head around because the story feels so convincing. The fear feels so convincing, right? Or we can tell a better story that says “Actually, this is just a part of my hero's journey. And I know that I have the resourcefulness, the capacity, the love, and support to always find a way.”

And that was one really big thing that I realized Back in 2011, was that, you know, regardless of what life threw at me, I had the ability to decide that I was on a hero's journey. And I got to every time I came across a belief, which might be that you're a failure, you're not capable, you're not going to make it through this, I had the opportunity to tell a better story. So this is a really, really important aspect of it's like, what kind of stories are going through our head at the moment? And while they may seem convincing, are they actually real and valid?

Meggie: No, I really appreciate you sharing that part of your story. Loren and I met a couple of years ago, we actually shared a WeWork office, years ago in Sydney before we both moved to the United States. And I think the power of you sharing your story, and we won't have time to go into it now. But you know, I think you sort of touched on there that as a family and as an individual and as a professional, you went through enormous upheaval and the lowest of blows. And yet, you don't you're grateful for that. It's “experience now” because you know, that's led you to where you are.

How did you go through that process of reframing that most awful experience in your family's life to where it's led you now?

Loren: Yeah, if we look at any age, human story, right, there are always peaks and troughs. And if we look at nature, nature always ebbs and flows. And so if we can buy into this illusion that you know, things are always going to move on a linear path upwards, they don't mean look at what the economy does as well. And so if we can accept that those troughs are required in order for us to create our next peak, then we can start to learn to ride the wave of life.

And so for me, it was always a question of like, I'm, in some respects, I feel like I'm seeing a full circle come around with what I experienced in 2011. I can see that it's happening again on a collective planetary level this time around. And the great thing for me to have been able to reflect on is that how much I've grown from the experience, how much this time around, I feel a much greater sense of calm how because I've done a lot of the self-development and mindset work.

I'm not anxiety-ridden like I was the first time around. I was like losing my hair, losing weight, everything when I genuinely thought it was the end of the world. So in hindsight, in order for me to stand here today, in a place where like, I feel like my business is doing well, my family's doing well, we couldn't have gotten here if it wasn't for the experience that we had in 2011.

So I look back at that period of time. And despite the fact that I had my greatest challenges at that period of time, I would never take them away because they've made me who I am today. And that in some respects, like if we view it for one lens, like that level of growth is only something that can serve us time and time and time again in our life. If we've come through at once we can come through it again. If we have learned how to make money in a trough, or two how to survive in a trough the great thing is like when the peak comes out way will be really ready for it.

So there's a ton of opportunity that's available here, even in the midst of a lot of suffering, even in the midst of a lot of challenges for a lot of people. But I'm also a massive believer that the human experience is one of like having to go through our own challenges in order to realize how resilient and powerful we are. So we can't take that away from anyone. We can't take that away from someone that's supposed to have this experience. Because, you know, if we reflect on our own lives, many of us have been through challenges, and they've made us resilient. So can we take that away and say, like, Oh, I wish that wasn't happening to you if it's going to be the best gift that comes your way? I don't think so. So it's, you know, we have to look at it from multiple angles, even though like when we're in the midst of it is really, really, really hard to do. So.

Meggie: Yeah, I think that's so true. It's kind of like that concept when they say, you know, that idea of being a helicopter parent and I don't have children, but from what I understand when you're a helicopter parent, you kind of always solving your children's problems, but actually at some point, I made to fail, and I need to hit rock bottom and they need to build themselves off on their own. So I can kind of stay some synergies between what you're saying and that analogy as well.

You mentioned that you did a lot of work and that you have a lot of growth in the past 10 years. So for people who are at the start of that kind of growth journey in moving towards a more abundant mindset and finding opportunities, even in kind of dark times, like the world's experiencing now, what are some really practical things that people can do like right now or like tomorrow? So you mentioned routine and making a choice every day prioritizing good things?

Are there other practical things that people can put into practice today?

Loren: Completely. I think it's really, really important to find a group of people that have high energy that are not going to bring you down, especially if you're currently surrounded by like, I don't know about you, but when I go out, the energy is not great out there. It's doom and gloom, right.

So what's really beautiful is that a lot of like virtual coffee meetups are happening at the moment for people to come together. So that's a freeway that we can choose to catch up with one another, share our experiences collectively and come together and pull our heads together and get creative around how we're going to navigate these times. So that's one really easy way to do it. There's a ton of them popping up at the moment.

If you can't find one yourself, start one. There are no rules, right? So if you're not seeing it, then just be the leader when it comes to that. The next piece around the seeds for me, I'm a massive believer that we're not designed to do this on our own. We're human. And so we have to you and I have talked about this extensively.

We need to surround ourselves with people that can facilitate that journey for us. So back when I started, back in 2011, I didn't realize that I was suffering from some form of like trauma and mental health issues. And so my boss at the time when I was working at the law firm recommended that I go see a psychologist because he had also lost his daughter. And so it never came. It never popped into my mind that that was actually something that I should or could do.

And so that's how my self-development journey began. Because I started seeing a psychologist she helped me. It was really helpful to have an observer from the outside look in on my circumstances, this could be a therapist, this could be a coach, whatever it is a healer. And that was how I got into the journey of firstly starting to recognize that I'm not my emotions. I am not the stories that I'm telling myself. And it just allowed me breathing space to realize that so that I could start to recreate myself because it felt like I had hit rock bottom. So yeah, those are some recommendations of that.

And actually, the way that we met was, well, it was through the office space that we share. But you then brought me very kindly into a group of women entrepreneurs, who you know, I'm still in contact with every day now and we've kind of formed our own little support crew a couple of years ago that that that is still maintained today. And I think, honestly, I don't know about you, but like I would not have been able to make the leaps of faith that I did. We'll make the growth in revenue or hire staff or expand into some of our fortune 500 clients had it not been for the support of that group. So I really that really resonates with me when you talk about the power of that group and community around you.

Meggie: One of the things, Lauren, that you've taught me is the power of understanding and finding your zone of genius, which I'm going to guess is linked to abundance as well. But can you just for people who are not familiar with that term, a phrase that you've coined?

Can you talk us through the power of understanding and finding your zone of genius?

Loren: Yeah. So when I think of genius, I think of it as this unique pot of ingredients that is uniquely you. And so it could be the skills that you've acquired over the course of your lifetime, the lessons you've learned the experiences that you've had on this like journey of life, it could be the things that you have learned formally or informally. It's your particular energy that you have personality traits when we wrap all of that up. That is your union. So genius.

And so what happens and what has happened and what many people are currently experiencing is that they might be losing a job, but they never even really like to begin with. But there's still grief and loss associated with it, right? And so what this actually is, is a perfect opportunity for us to take stock and be like, is this actually what I want to be doing? Like, you know, for example, I was a litigation lawyer for a number of years. And it wasn't until I had that catalyst event that I really called that into the question asked myself is this how I want to be living my life? Is this the best use of my resources and time and in the five years since then, I actually realized I want to be helping people on a human behavioral level, serving them, and being able to have flexibility running my business. So I went and did that. And so I think there's an awesome opportunity.

Meggie: Yeah, I love that I just like it's funny for me. She says that she used to be a litigation lawyer because it's like so contrary to how I know you be and why I know what I know you love doing.

I just wanted to give you an opportunity to talk to people about some of the programs that you're running and people who kind of align to find more abundance and really move into that zone of genius, like, obviously, you've got a lot of content online, but I know you run courses as well. Is there anything that you kind of wanted to talk everyone through from that?

Loren: Yeah. So for me the fundamental pinnacles of new creating our definition of abundance, finding money, experience, whether that be your work or business. So I do a lot of business coaching, helping startup founders and people that want to get into the business, launch their business and grow because I think that's a powerful tool for creating abundance and freedom in our life. So I assist a lot of people with that.

But then on the other side of it, I also focus on mindset and abundance, because I'm a firm believer that 90% of our success comes from what we're thinking. And so I also have courses one of them being one of them is called the abundant alchemists, which is all-around shifting our mindset so that we can transform our lives.

I think part of what I love to do is make all of this as practical as possible take like there any sort of like airiness out of it and make it very like strategic on a day to day basis as to how we can apply it in our life. So the way that I help people is either you know that mindset is the piece that you want to start in or you know that business is the place where you want to start. Regardless, I've got online courses and programs for both of them. So if anyone knows that, like now is the time for them to really firstly step into their leadership of what it's going to look like for them in their life. And they know that they're either ready to run a business or to grow one online then they're very welcome to get in touch with me. I love this stuff. Really, really lights me up I get super excited when someone wants to write because I think like your passion really shines through

Meggie: We have this Facebook group, it's called The Coven. I don't know why it's called that but it is and there's probably about eight of us on there. And I think I actually did this I think the other day I was like, “hey, like, what is up? How's everyone going or something like that?” It was like it was very negative. I have to be honest, I didn't feel that negative. But I guess I was just putting and assuming that everyone was feeling negative, like one or two of the women write back there like “yeah, like this sucks.” And I was like, “Oh gosh, what are we gonna do?” And Lauren was like, “No, no, this is amazing like what an opportunity! Who's feeling amazing? Who's feeling fabulous?” And I was like “What?! Fabulous who's feeling fabulous during a global pandemic?” And then I realized that it's like that's your MR. And you're choosing to make that choice every single minute.

Loren: Very deliberate choice. It's no, I don't… I can't see the reality of what's unfolding. I'm very much tuned into it. But it's also what we all have choices, right? So it's a very deliberate choice as to like the story that we get to tell ourselves and I want to be the example of that because we can't all be doom and gloom. Otherwise, we're never going to get out of this hole together.

Meggie: Yeah. And so I need to thank you because you really wrenched me out of whatever sort of momentary negative lapse I was in. As I said, in my head I didn't think I was being that negative. But when you were so positive, it made me reflect that actually, my behavior was not coming from a positive place. And it could be.

And actually, for us at PepTalkHer, like, we're so fortunate in that, you know, I'm similar to you, I built this business because I wanted to have a choice. And I want to have geographic freedom, and my team works remotely anyway. And what a blessing that I'm able to continue to do the work that we do from quarantine here in Australia instead of my apartment in New York, where I would typically be so yeah, lots of positives to come from there.

I want to thank you, Loren, because you've really helped me shift my mindset through being friends with you and being in your community. So I'm just thrilled that we're able to bring this to the PepTalkHer community. And yeah, I'm just I think that you're doing great work and why and I'm glad you're not a litigation lawyer anymore.

Loren: Insane, right? It was a really smart move by Loren from five years ago. And so we have to honor ourselves because we're going to make some really smart decisions now and the next coming month like for anyone that's listening to this, and I'm ready to recognize like how capable you are how resilient Oh, I have this motto. I'm like, this is not my first rodeo. And I keep saying I'm like, this isn't my first rodeo. Like, I've got this. We've got it.

Meggie: You can check out Loren’s work at lorentrlin.com. She actually also has a podcast and sometimes like, everyone has a podcast. It's a bit annoying. But I'm pretty harsh because I used to be journalists. And I can tell you, Loren’s podcast is excellent. I remember what I ran you off. And I was like, I was like, I'm trying to be harsh because I want to give you constructive feedback. And I was like, I have no constructive view. I think it's excellent. Thank you. Excellent podcast, so you can download that as well.

You can check out more info on Loren here.

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How to Build Lasting Business Relationships Online

Our Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer chatted with Arielle Patrick from Edelman about building lasting relationships online. Her top takeaways? Help me, help you, close the feedback loop, and surprise and delight with care packages or handwritten notes.

I help run our mergers and acquisitions practice which also has a focus on bankruptcy and restructuring. It's a fusion of crisis management and broader consulting, helping CEOs and boards think through the most effective ways to communicate about complex financial decisions that they're making. And on the side, I sit on a few nonprofit boards and I also, as of the past two years, have been doing some angel investing. So, that's been fun to do.

Meggie: You’re one of the most well-networked people that I know in New York City and I'm really interested in you to share your wisdom today.

What are the things that are so important to developing quality relationships in business?

No spamming, only quick round-ups

Arielle: I think, first of all, focus on the word “relationship.” Relationships are meant to be long-term investments in other people and not only thinking about how they can serve you but how you can serve them. That's actually the most important part. So some things that I did early on in my career when trying to build my network, both in my firm and outside were, I thought, "what do I study, and know best from an information perspective that I can share with people?"

So, I actually would do these little end of the week round ups where I'd send people that I thought would be interested, little round-ups of the types of news and other industry updates that I was seeing that were compelling. It wouldn't be spamming them every day, but just a quick round-up. Here are some articles that I thought were pretty cool, here are some trends as I see them. That was one tactic.

“Relationships are meant to be long-term investments in other people and not only thinking about how they can serve you but how you can serve them. ”

When you introduce yourself to people

When you are introducing yourself to people, be very mindful of what actually connects you and what you might have in common and how you could benefit from one another as a two-way street. You have to explain that at the outset. It's often very stressful now that I'm on the receiving end and no longer making the request. I get these emails saying, can I pick your brain over coffee? Explain to me why that would be helpful for either of us. So, sort of, outlining the rationale at the outset is really important.

Keep your connections updated

And then the last piece is what I call the feedback loop. So often people will reach out to me to connect them with someone. The next thing you know they're saying “I saw you're connected to these three board members of this company on LinkedIn, can you introduce me?” One: ask me how well I know them, how comfortable I would be to make an introduction. Two: give me feedback on how the conversation went, and three: give credit, or at least thank the person or update them if something good comes of it. 

You wouldn't believe the number of times where I've gotten people jobs. I didn't even know they got the job. One person got fired six months later. I wish I had known that before connecting them again.

So, keeping your connections updated on how they've helped you progress is really important. And of course, if you are again the person asking, find ways to add value. So, whether it's sharing Intel that you're getting from the industry or maybe saying, “Hey I wanted to introduce you to someone else who might be interesting.”

“I’ve never once asked her for anything. The few times that I’ve had to pick her brain about things, it was so easy because I never asked for anything.”

An example would be one of my mentors, an incredible woman. What I saw in common with her was that she was another black woman who went to Princeton that was working in the financial area.  It took several months to find a connection and get time on the calendar. We had a coffee and I only asked for 15 minutes.

I remember we sat in the lobby of the St. Regis Hotel and she had a club soda and I was shaking nervous. At the very end of the meeting, she said, “what can I do for you? Why are we meeting?” And I said, “Nothing. I just think it would be important to stay connected and let me know if I can be helpful.” That spoke volumes and so she sent me a note after. I’ll never forget it. I think I framed it, or I should frame it! It said, “I'm honored to be in your orbit.” And I'm like, she's honored to be in my orbit?!

To this day, we've been connected for years. I never once asked her for anything. The few times that I've had to pick her brain about things, it was so easy because I never asked for anything. And then cut to a couple of years later, I helped her hire for her new chief of staff. I heard through the grapevine that her former chief of staff was leaving, and she needed help. I sent out tons of feelers and one of the candidates I sent her was hired. So that's adding value. 

It may take a long time but find ways to be helpful to mentors. I know for a fact that if I have something big I need, I'm not embarrassed to ask because I've already shown that.

Meggie: I think this is a great quote, “ when you need help, it's too late to build a relationship.” So I think it's really important to be building those relationships early on. The other thing that you touched on is this concept of Give, Give, Get. So not reaching out to someone on LinkedIn with the expectation that you can sell it to them, rather helping and adding value, similar to your point with the newsletter digest that you did.

Can you think of how you can help start to build that relationship before the expectation of getting something in return? Do you have any examples of that in your career?

Arielle: As I said, being a connector is more important than being connected. It always comes back. Making intros is really important. Sometimes, you don't even know what the mutual connection will be. If you just think people have similar interests and a friendship or some sort of relationship could pan out, there's no harm in just asking, “hey do you mind being introduced to this person?” Explain what the reasons are for it, and why they'd be good connections. So many of those that I've done, years later, they ended up working together, doing business together. So you never know. 

I actually love when friends become friends because then my circle gets tighter and stronger and I really believe that if other people are successful, the chances of me being successful rise.

A big part of my job is actually bringing in new accounts. So, since I work on transactions, we're not a retainer business where we have clients for years. I have clients for a merger or an acquisition or a restructuring. These are moments in time. So, I'm constantly having to generate new business. What I often find myself doing is favors for free for potential clients or referral sources. So that way I'm the first person that they think of.

“I actually love when friends become friends because then my circle gets tighter and stronger and I really believe that if other people are successful, chances of me being successful rise.”

An example would be, I met a really incredible lawyer at Sullivan & Cromwell. He runs the mergers and acquisitions practice and I mean he's a legend in the industry. I was even just honored to be in the room with him and I remember saying “always here if you need help”. It was a soft pitch. I just wanted him to know that we were available as a partner.  

Several months later, he calls and says “I'm on the board of Brooklyn law school and we need help with a special project. The school doesn't have a lot of money.” It wasn't a deal but they needed a little bit of PR help and so we invested a ton of capital and time into helping him. And you know after that, the deals just kept coming. Now, I get regular work from him. So, doing favors; being a connector, more than expecting to be connected; and sharing information are the three ways that I not only generate new business, but also build relationships and my friend network as well as my professional network.

Meggie: Let's say, someone, reaches out to you and wants a connection with someone.

What is the best introduction email that someone can send you to kind of help facilitate those connections?

Arielle: So, I would actually say you are an expert at this! You should write the script. It's essential to make my job easier. Outline in the email why you want to be introduced, what the ask is, if any, hopefully, there's none. It's probably better if there's not an immediate near-term ask. But if there is, be transparent about it. And the last piece is to write me a draft email that I can send to the person that has your bio and information and a little bit about your background and what the synergies are. I just want a copy-paste then maybe add my own flair and send that off so that I'm not spending more hours in my day figuring out how to help you. So, help me help you.

Meggie: Totally! So sending a clear, maybe just two lines short, and including the hyperlinks. That's really, really valuable so that those introductions are easy for the person that you're asking. The other thing like things now is a real opportunity for all at home we're all on social media. A lot to have that understanding of people that you're connecting with, like what football team they follow, whether they have children…

Can you just talk about contextualizing things outside of work as well? 

Arielle: I'm gonna flip it a little bit. I am asked the question all the time, “what's it like often being the youngest person in a room of senior people, the only person of color, and often the only woman? And I always say: the connections that we have with people are so much deeper than that. 

Do your research

The reason why I'm often able to gather consensus in the rooms of often traditionally white men in their 50s who represent the majority of CEOs and board members is that I do the research beforehand. So, is the guy a Mets fan? Me too! So was my grandfather and so is my dad. That's something I'm gonna bring up. Where did he go to college? Was it the same place as me? Or somewhere my cousin went? Can I bring that up? You know, does he have a twin brother? Me too!

So, just finding those deeper human connections. That’s really how relationships are built, and I think often people assume that based on the way that you appear that you may have synergies with them. Just because maybe you belong to the same country club, or whatever the reasons are that create these sort of old boys’ clubs. But it’s so much deeper than that. 

I always do the stalking. LinkedIn is a great place but also I will look them up on Facebook. Maybe there's a cute picture of their kid. I don't know, find something. I also like to see who I know in common with them if anyone is good to mention, like: “oh my gosh I just saw Frank the other day.” If you really feel like you're coming up empty, which I think is very hard. Ask questions. Express interest in who they are. Obviously, the opener for every email right now is “I hope you and your family are safe” … but maybe it's, “how have you been?” 

“Express interest. The best thing is that person then knows that I’m in it long-term and it’ll come back.”

You know, one thing I did the other day was I asked someone: “how have you been spending your days?  What do you like to do when you unwind? Like, “any good books or podcasts you're into?” That could lead to an incredible conversation, so stay curious. 

This relates to relationship building in general. Express interest. The best thing is that person then knows that I'm in it for the long-term and it'll come back.

Meggie: Finding that point of connection is so crucial because also I think if you genuinely are interested, it's not about the sale. It's not about the deal. People can see through automated sales pitches.

Do you think that networking is a dirty word?

Arielle: I hate the word networking. First of all, it's a noun: Network. I don't know when it became a verb. Maybe sometime in the early 2000s or the 90s but it's terrible. I'm a grammar snob, so, sorry! But, the real reason is it's just so formulaic and transactional.

We're not networking. A network isn't really the point, it's a human connection. So, I prefer relationship building, helping, connecting, being of service, paying it forward. 

Meggie: I think that’s really important as well. What about building relationships remotely?

What are you doing to stay connected? 

Arielle: Everyone’s been asking me, how are you adjusting to working from home? It wasn’t an adjustment just because I travel so much for business, so I'm used to making things work from hotel rooms all the time. But, it is a different thing when you can't even, no matter what city you are in, jump into a coffee shop with somebody. I think if a call can become a video chat, that’s really helpful. 

I’ve been scheduling virtual coffee with a lot of my colleagues throughout the day just to check-in. Virtual coffee is good. Try to keep it short 15-20 maybe, max 30 minutes as people are really swamped right now. And there’s nothing more awkward than being stuck in a video chat for an hour. 

I also send things. I sent someone the other day a kit of face masks because I know that she's really into Korean beauty products. I also sent another prospective client some of my favorite food from Southampton - care packages are great.

Also notes, like letters, I know that may sound kind of creepy! But if done well, it can be great. It depends on how well you know the person.

Also speaking of handwritten notes, remember I mentioned the feedback loop and thanking people after they do things?  Handwritten notes are an ideal way to do this. Email at minimum… but preferably a handwritten note to say thank you. If it's a big favor, flowers don't hurt either!

Who have you observed as one of the best people that you come across in your career? Who has built relationships really well? 

Arielle: Well, you are definitely one of them Meggie! Remind me, how did we meet? 

Meggie: We met when I was working at the Financial Times and I knew that you're a Wing member, so after the meeting, I was like, "Oh I might see you at The Wing! And then we just had that connection, exactly the point you made earlier.

Arielle: And Meggie, another way that you built the relationship was you kept sending me people that I would like to meet, that would be interesting and I've become friends with many of them. So that's always helpful.

“Email at minimum… but preferably a handwritten note to say thank you. If it’s a big favor, flowers don’t hurt either! ”

You can check out Arielle’s awesome work here on Instagram & LinkedIn.

Arielle Patrick joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Networking Remotely. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for your invite to the ...

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Tips on How to Become a Best Selling Author

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer chatted with Shannon Molloy. FOURTEEN is a book about his life as a teen, growing up gay in a regional town. Shannon shares his story, as well as his top tips on how to become a best selling author, finding your story, getting published, and the grueling editing process.

What is your book, Fourteen, all about?

This is one year in my life when I was 14 growing up in regional Queensland at the turn of the new century in the year 2000. Just sort of trying to figure out who I was in a pretty inhospitable setting, being the NRL mad all-boys school, very toxic macho culture that I went to, and all the sort of torment and horror that came along with others. People sort of realized I was gay before I did and it was kind of a year of some pretty horrific mental verbal and physical abuse on an almost daily basis. But the story is also about how I survived that year with the help of the love of my incredible family and a little posse of girlfriends with a sort of smattering of the late 90s pop music in there as well. 

Meggie: I want to get on to the tips to writing a memoir but just quickly, There's a scene in the book towards the end where you go on exchange and your host mother was wonderful.

Can you just talk us through the power of the relationship of someone who wasn't your blood family but really from my reading of it changed your life?

Shannon: It absolutely changed my life. She was this sort of you know, larger-than-life character. Born and raised in Flushing Queens who then moved to Connecticut. There was not a nasty bone in her body and she was sort of the first adult who talked to me about my sexuality and what I was figuring out about myself in a non-malicious way, in a very understanding way. She was wonderful. She would drive me to this like gay and lesbian youth group. She took me to queer prom which I didn't even know was a thing when I was growing up in Australia. And she was just unquestionably there for me and it was the first time that I'd experienced that. 

I was quite unsure growing up if I would ever experience that so she had a profound impact on me saying that the world wasn't always going to be this horror that I had endured. And that there were people out there that would love me and be kind.

Meggie: I want to dive in for people who are listening who think they have a story to share, who are touring with the idea of writing a memoir, or who have had people in their life say to them, “you should write a memoir.”

What's the process of writing a memoir like? Where do you even start? 

Shannon: The great thing is that everyone has a story. I really subscribe to that view that within all of us there are experiences and views and ups and downs that make a compelling story, that people can get something from. The flip side of that is that there's a lot of competition. You know, if we all have stories, getting them out there and having them read can be really challenging at times. So what I did was I became aware through a media colleague that a particular publisher was on the hunt for new stories and I really seized from that opportunity. The problem at the time was that I hadn't written a single word about this story that I'd had rolling around in the back of my mind for years that I knew could be powerful and that I wanted to tell.  

So what I did was just write a really succinct but kind of powerful one-page pitch outlining who I was, what I wanted to say, the key characters, the sort of key story arcs within this book and a bit of a point of difference. And for me it was this is one year in my life and each chapter would be one month in that year from January to December and it would kind of plot this rollercoaster ride and share some sort of tales that you read now in 2020 and think, oh thank God things have changed. But then you sort of have had cause to reflect and think, first of all, this was not that long ago and second of all, had things really changed. 

I would have wanted it to be personal but also thought-provoking and a little bit different. And so that's what I pitched with a one-pager and that got me in the door and then I thought oh no now I've got to write something.

So I wrote a sample chapter which I thought showcased the absolute best of that page. And that started the conversation.

After writing an amazing pitch, one-pager, then a sample chapter, what kind of happens from there? Do they make you an offer? How does that work? 

Shannon: So the person I pitched it to was the head of non-fiction at Simon and Schuster in Australia and then would also be my editor once the deal was in place. I worked with him on the pitch. I sort of got him interested, met with him, talked about how it could play out, and then the process from that was writing this sample chapter. 

And I worked with him on making it as strong as it could be and then the way it works. I'm told this is how it works in most publishing houses. A person takes this thing that they've found and they pitch it to the entire team and that's you know other parts of literature within the business, the sales and marketing team, the management. I think the sample chapter even went to the US to be looked at by someone over there at Simon & Schuster. And so they, the whole business sort of bi-xenon on this idea and then from there they made me an offer and I got to work on actually writing it and put together 80,000 words in five and a half months.

“It took longer to refine it and go through various sets of hands than it took more than the length of writing it.”

Meggie: Oh my gosh! Did you write the book in less than six months? That's a quick turnaround. 

Shannon: Yes, but as you know journalists work best with deadlines and I wanted it done so that we could begin the next chapter of the journey which would be editing that which took 12 months. So, it took longer to refine it and go through the various sets of hands than it took more than the length of writing it.

The process, it's normally the sort of time. From deal to having it on shelves is about 18 months and that's pretty much exactly what it was in my case. 

They go through it with a fine-tooth comb. There are lots of people that give incredible and valuable feedback. Then there's you know, six rounds of proofreading and restructures and all that sort of jazz. So yeah, it's a lengthy process.

When is the TV series or the movie coming out?

Meggie: From people wanting to know, when is the TV series or the movie coming out? I want to know that too because I can really see the book Fourteen. It seems to me that when it's a great story like yours, it's actually just the beginning. 

Shannon: Potentially, hopefully! So at the launch, there's normally a lot involved in it. Unfortunately, mine was due to that. My tour was gonna start on April 2 and so the Corona virus has sort of thrown a spanner in the works and that's why I talked to you from my house now instead of us being in a nice setting like a cafe or something like that. 

But normally, you'd hit the road and do lots of readings and events and press. I'm doing a little bit of virtual stuff like this and dropping into bookshop events and whatnot. But basically, the process is that you write the book. I did the audio version of it as well which was another sort of five days locked in a studio. and then yeah hopefully, this is just the beginning. There has been some interest in acquiring screen rights which is very exciting but who knows. We'll see. Watch this space. 

Is it normal that you would get an opportunity to write a sample chapter before you get a deal? Is that like a normal part of getting published? 

Shannon: As a process, it's not abnormal. I have two really good mates that have written books that bears eighteen months before mine came out. One of them is Rick Morton. So he did much the same that I did, wrote some sample stuff, and then wrote the book over the course of a period of time. Conversely, the other friend had written a full manuscript, had sort of gone through it with an agent, and then took it to a publisher. Both are fine. 

For me, it just happened really quickly and so I didn't have time to write a full book. But, I know that if you've got a great story to tell and you can get with the hook or a little taste of what's to come then you know, go for it! 

“If you’ve got a great story to tell and you can get with the hook or a little taste of what’s to come then you know, go for it! ”

If people don’t have a profile as a writer or they don’t have a career for writing or journalism. Do you think it's possible for their stories to get told?

Meggie: You’re an accomplished journalist. Do you have any advice on how they should position themselves to get picked up?

Shannon: Absolutely! I don't know if I'd call myself an accomplished journalist but, thank you! I'm a journalist but I'm an unknown author and I don't really have a profile in that space. I'm certainly not kind of mainstream so I would count myself in some regard as being in the camp of someone without a massive profile. Go for it. 

As I said, everyone has a story to tell and if you can refine your pitch and find your point of difference and really identify who your book is going to resonate with and emphasize that. I think memoir is a booming part of the literary world. People are really responding, particularly at the moment in uncertain times, to stories that are true and that they can learn something from. So, I don't think it matters who you are. If you've got a compelling story and the capacity to write it, then go for it.

“Everyone has a story to tell and if you can refine your pitch and find your point of difference and really identify who your book is going to resonate with and emphasize that. ”

Meggie: If you've got a great story, if you know that your life is a little different if people are always fascinated in your story, but then you don't have the writing skills. If you don't think of yourself as a writer, is there like a middle ground? Or is it typical in a memoir industry to partner with a ghostwriter?

What are the options for people who don't fancy themselves as a writer? 

Shannon: Firstly, there are a ton of free or very cheap writing courses that people can take and now it's a great opportunity to do it because we're all stuck at home unable to go to the pub and waste hours away as I used to. So there's that option. 

You could have a go at improving your skills and do it yourself but absolutely there are opportunities to partner with different people. It could even be that, let's say you've got a really great story that you think could have an impact but you're not a strong writer. Maybe you could partner with an illustrator, into a kid’s books.

You could think about doing like an audio podcast series that's complemented by a short-form book or a story, a sort of essay compilation. I think maybe if you had a large profile a ghostwriter would be the norm but I'm not sure if it's just for others necessarily but gosh, who knows? 

Meggie: I'm interested to know from your perspective, as the author, what was that like? Because presumably when you write a memoir, you need to go fairly deep into the best of your life and also the worst.

How did you manage writing a memoir? Was it quite traumatizing? 

Shannon: It was an interesting process when I took on this project. I had never really told people much of what happened to me. My closest friends knew maybe the surface level detail that school was really terrible and I had a rough time but that's kind of it. Even my husband knew some of the anecdotes that are in this book but not the full sort of the year of hell. And my mom certainly, a lot of this was news to her which was hard and sad. So personally it was a kind of a traumatic experience at times. But I was really careful that I had a support network in place, that I took regular breaks. It could be something like I wrote a really tough couple of pages and then went for a nice walk in the park afterward.

I was really cautious that this could be triggering and almost certainly would be triggering and so it was difficult. But at the end of it all, honestly, I think it was the most cathartic thing that I've ever done. I took this box of pain and shame that I've been carrying around hidden deep inside me for twenty years and let it go. It was amazing. 

“Personally, it was a kind of a traumatic experience at times. But I was really careful that I had a support network in place, that I took regular breaks.”

I joked that it was like free therapy that I got paid for, so it was great in that regard. But of course, you know this story is one that's not unique. A lot of gay men have experienced what I experienced and a lot of gay youth continued to experience what I experienced. So this will be challenging for some people to read but the thing that I really want to emphasize and that I hope I did in the book is the power of kindness and of love and how simple acts of kindness can change someone's day, give them hope to carry on for another couple of months and in one example in the book save their life.

And so I hope that there's some optimism in that story and of course when you get to the end of it and you read here's what happened in the 20 years after part and seeing me now on-screen, hopefully, looking happy, maybe a little bit tired. But the message that I truly believe and that I'm so passionate about sharing is that it gets better. You know, a terrible day today is tomorrow's lesson learned or something. And you know terrible days, terrible weeks, terrible months, or indeed terrible years, don't last forever and that there is better to come. 

“I think it was the most cathartic thing that I’ve ever done. I took this box of pain and shame that I’ve been carrying around hidden deep inside me for twenty years and let it go. It was amazing. ”

Meggie: Did you have to go through a process of deciding what you wouldn't want to put in the book in the sense of your family and friends? Do you have to decide whether you're gonna leave things out in order to protect other people and what was that process like? 

Shannon: Yeah, it was one of the things that I did and it's a tip that other writers gave me. One that I totally think is worth doing is that I didn't edit while I was writing. I just wrote. I left the editing to the end so that I didn't get too much in my own head that I didn't overthink things or doubt myself. And so when I got to the end there were definitely some things that I thought that didn't need to be in there, it doesn't enrich the story but it betrays someone's secret. I change everyone's name in this book who comes across badly, essentially. Mostly for legal reasons but also because you know, it's been 20 years and maybe the guy that was horrific to me is now lovely and has changed. I don't want his family and work colleagues to think that that's necessarily reflected in who he is today. 

So, I felt a responsibility to do that. There were some things, some of the worst parts in the book we muted a little bit just because we didn't want to depress people. We didn't want to have people think I can't write any more of this and miss the hope and optimism. But largely, this story is a reflection of the best and the worst that year with a couple of small details left out.

“The message that I truly believe and that I’m so passionate about sharing is that, it gets better. You know, a terrible day today is tomorrow’s lesson learned or something. And you know terrible days, terrible weeks, terrible months, or indeed terrible years, don’t last forever and that there is better to come. ”

You can check out Shannon’s awesome work here on Instagram & how to purchase his book on his website.

Shannon Molloy joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Getting Your Memoir Published. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for your invit...

We host daily, 15 minute live chats with experts on goal setting, handling work politics, and decluttering. For top tips and on how to start a gratitude practice, click here or you can check out our PepTalkHer Cheatsheet here.

Got a story to share or a PepTalk to give? If you'd like us to feature you, please reach out here.

Managing Microaggressions at Work - with Former Obama staff Lisa Gelobter

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke to Former Obama staffer Lisa Gelobter from teQuitable about Managing Microaggressions. She talked on how to handle communication around microaggressions in the workplace. She also shared her story about Barack Obama asking her to go and work for him.

I have a degree in Computer Science. I'm one of the few black women. Unfortunately, that is true of and I've been fortunate enough over the course of my career to work on some pretty transformative technology. So, I was an engineer on something called Shockwave which was the first time that the web moved. I helped Hulu. I ran digital at BET, the television network- Black Entertainment Television, and then I worked at the White House under President Obama where I served as the chief digital service officer for the US Department of Education. Then, leaving that into the administration trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. I started teQuitable which is where I'm the CEO and founder. 

Meggie: You used to work for Obama. What was that like? Tell us about the moment when he asked you to come and join his administration. 

What was it like when Obama asked you to go and work for him at The White House?

Lisa: That was pretty remarkable. I grew up low-income in New York. It was not something you know. I wasn't like ‘when I grow up one day I'm gonna work at the White House, for the president, for the first black president.’ But it was a pretty incredible journey. I don't actually think I shared with you how it came to be. 

It's an incredible story. So, I got a call. I'm sitting at my desk. I got a call from the White House asking me to come down for a roundtable. They were trying to figure out how they were gonna use technology to improve the way the government served the American people. And I was like, ‘sure!’ The White House Calls you, you say yes. But then they were hemming and they were hoying and I was like, ‘look I have a vacation plan. Once you get your schedule together let me know and I will let you know if I can come.’

But I had no idea like it was the office of the CTO that called. And so I did end up cutting my vacation short. I flew by just by day. I flew down to DC and it was a complete surprise. So, we walk into the West. It’s called the Roosevelt Room which is directly across The Office. But again, I know nothing about the government, the White House. The only reason I know that the West Wing is in the White House is that there was a TV show.

And so when I got there, it was the Chief Technology Officer of the United States of America, the Chief Information Officer, (I think) a deputy administrator of the Office of Management and Budget which apparently controls the entire federal government's purse strings. So again, I don't know. I'm like, ‘what's happening here?’ They take you to a room and there they close the door and they're like ‘surprise!’. This is actually a recruiting trip and I'm like, ‘I don't know what's happening.’

And then, they proceeded for the next 45 minutes to give us the literally the hardest cell you have ever seen. It's very like, ‘you will never have so much impact on your life... The president wants us to be part of his legacy.’ It's just this whole year. I don't know what is happening. I'm here for a roundtable? So, it was a lot.

Then the door opened and in walked the president. And this is how you know that I am a totally jaded New Yorker because he’s with a videographer and photographer and he goes around and he shakes all of our hands and I'm like ‘yeah! yeah! I get it a nice touch! It's a photo-op! like mm-hmm…’

Then, he sits down with us for 45 minutes and talks about it like ‘the government is bureaucratic but the White House isn't. I'm at the end of my second term. I care even less about breaking the rules like it's all like if I have to call your mother, your sibling, your child, I will.’ We all laugh and he's like, ‘I'm not joking.’ I mean it's everything.

And people asked me afterward like, ‘oh are you gonna do this?’ I think the President of the United States asked you to do something the only answer is ‘yes, sir!’ And I will say, it's one of those things. The story is amazing and I was so grateful to have that time, that opportunity to be personally recruited by the president. But, I will also say I don't tell that story very often because there's some level of - the president invited me like I was the asshole that didn't go do the good work until the president personally asked me to, right?  

I got the department of education. There are people there who are brilliant who have worked there for eight years, 10 years, and 30 years and show up every single day and put one foot in front of the other because they're trying to make the world a better place for students. They're the ones that deserve the recognition, the credit, and the endless shine and the spotlight and it was that they show up and they do the work every day and have been for years. And so while my experience was incredible from my perspective, it was really those folks were the real heroes.

Meggie: That's so interesting and you're so humble to say that because those people that do that work every day absolutely deserve all the thanks and praise all the time. You did work over the White House, Obama did personally recruit you, what an amazing story! Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you also just give us some background? You mentioned earlier that you're one of the few women of color working in technology.

What was that like for you as a minority in your chosen career path? 

 Lisa: It's really interesting. There are a lot more people paying attention to that these days, and in the 80s there were actually a lot more women in computer science. By the time I came on, I was at the cusp of the digital age, the Internet age. Shockwave was right at the cusp when the internet went more mainstream, and so there was a little bit of a shift. There were definitely women in the industry before I got there, but there was less than the new technologies, the new orientation for the industry. 

I have said I work in technology. I've worked in media entertainment. I worked in the federal government. I also have a random connection to USA Gymnastics because I'm a professional gymnastics photographer as well. And so it's just one of those things like all roads were clearly pointing towards this. 

My experience has been the only there for my entire career. It manifests in so many different ways. It's literally been, except for my current company, I have literally been taken for the administrative assistant at every single organization I've ever worked at where I have been a vice president for going on 20 years now. And I don't dress pretty like I dress pretty business-y. I just get to a point where I take it as a compliment. It just means that I'm approachable and accessible and super-efficient and effective at doing my job.

“I have literally been taken for the administrative assistant at every single organization I’ve ever worked at where I have been a vice president.”

What is a microaggression?  What are examples of microaggressions?

Lisa: A little bit of context, so the thing that I'm doing now is called teQuitable. It's a technology company using technology to make workplaces more equitable. And really our mission is about creating a work culture that's gonna work for everyone.

I started doing what one of the things would create this platform where people can come and figure out how to handle interpersonal conflict, workplace misconduct, or just get advice. It's a safe place where they can get advice if they're feeling uncomfortable in the workplace. And part of the reasons why we built this is we heard from so many people about like, ‘well, I don't know if this thing happening, like does it really cross a line? Is it just me? Am I being too sensitive?’

We actually help companies address issues from subtle to severe. It's not just, ‘my boss groped me in the bathroom’ but it's the more subtle, insidious death by a thousand paper cuts that really affect people's day-to-day work lives. So, it was one of those things like, ‘my boss tried to touch my dreadlocks or I'm always mistaken for the other person of my race in my building.’ But, it's really those things that are lacking, the people don't really talk about enough. 

“I realized that there was something there about opening up these conversations, about talking about it out loud that gives it the space to be handled and dealt with. ”

It's around microaggressions. It's around this subtle, backhanded compliments and the reason it's so important is that I realized, I only talk about these things within my communities. I'm not talking to white women about the slights that happen to me because I'm black or light-skinned or whatever it is. I'm not talking to white men about my experience of having somebody stare at my boobs. Those are not things that I talk outside of my space and my people gave whatever the environment is. And I realized that there was something there about opening up these conversations, about talking about it out loud that gives it the space to be handled and dealt with. 

It actually makes for a healthier work environment if we are addressing some of these things but there's clarity in there, the space around it. 

If people are managing a team and haven’t had that experience of feeling objectified, what can they do to foster a workplace in a culture that is inclusive, safe, and open to feedback?

Lisa: Yeah, absolutely! The examples of what microaggressions look like especially its back-heading. The insidious part of it, it's those things like “oh you're being too sensitive about this, oh she doesn't really mean it like that.” And it's really about learning that it's about the impact, not the intention. It's not how it's received on the other end and so those are the things about, “oh you're black but you're so articulate, or you're too pretty to be an engineer, or you're a third-generation Asian American but you speak English so well.”  

It's those kinds of things that really get into your psyche and there's a lot of stuff, there are resources that actually show that the insidious nature of it can be worse for the recipient of them. The more obvious aggressions, is you start to question yourself and all of a sudden like, “are you the person who's like challenging them?”, “oh, it was just a joke”, “oh you're taking it the wrong way.” Those kinds of things start to also make you question your response and your reaction to it. 

So that's one of the things that we try to do. It is this platform where people can see themselves reflected. They understand that other people are going through these same things and so what can you do about it in your workplace, in your environment? I think it depends on what your role is. So, if it's happened to you, it really is about you. You can respond in a way that might be heard but where you still might feel safe. There's actually a ton of research that shows that if you say something that people will actually hear you and you can change people's behavior and again there's that balance about like putting the onus on the people who are feeling compromised. 

You don't ask the homeless to solve world hunger, right? So there's something there about that balance. There's something about figuring out how to say something at the moment but you have to actually first figure out how you are going to feel about it, whether you think it will get heard or you think it will be received. There is of course, if you inadvertently said something or did something or that somebody interpreted or received in a way that they were offended by, you'd be surprised at how far an “I'm sorry” goes. It's also super hard to not be defensive- “but I didn't mean it that way.” How do you take a step back and let it wash over you and hear it and internalize it and understand that it really is about the impact that you may have had on somebody, whether it was intentional or not?

“There’s something about figuring out how to say something at the moment but you have to actually first figure out how you are going to feel about it, whether you think it will get heard or you think it will be received. ”

You can check out more info on Lisa here.

Lisa Gelobter joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Managing Microaggressions. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for your invite to ...

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How to Start a Gratitude Practice

Success leaves clues and gratitude is the key to success for the world's most successful people. That’s what we learned when Meggie Palmer, Founder & CEO of PepTalkHer chatted with Mary Jensen on how to start a gratitude practice.

Why gratitude is so important?

Mary: Firstly, in such a beautiful climate that we have right now, we cannot be in gratitude or be grateful and in fear at the same time. The main reason for us to do a gratitude practice every day is to fill ourselves up, fill our cup up to make us feel and be the best version of ourselves to step out into the day.

If we wake up in our defaults and sh*t happens, we go down, down, down. What we do with the gratitude practice is we fill ourselves up. We start our day. Then if the shoot of the day hits us, we may end up back here. But, we don't end up here. We wouldn't live in our car without petrol. We often jump out of bed and hit the ground running with a mediocre mood. Gratitude is precious. Remove that media and make sure that we present to the day the best version of ourselves.

“Success leaves clues.”

For people who've never done a gratitude practice, what’s the best way to get started?

Mary: Gratitude, for the first 18 months for me, was disastrous, absolutely disastrous. Success leaves clues. We know success leaves clues. If we look at Richard Branson, Tony Robbins, Oprah Winfrey, Rene Brown, Ellen DeGeneres, they all do gratitude practices.

It's the most successful people in the world who are doing gratitude practices. I believe that would work for me too. I was taught to begin with gratitude. Each and every person needs to find their own way. It's not a one size fits all, because we all find different ways to be able to have that physiological change in the body.

When I began, I started “I am grateful for my husband. I'm grateful for Stephanie. I'm grateful for Adrian. I'm grateful for my kids.” And I'll be even more grateful when these goddamn practice starts working. It was not for me that way. I was doing a practice. I was not being grateful. For me at that point in time, it was another thing to add to my to-do list that was 100 miles long already.

Think of the things you love

Now, I open up my arms in my bed in the morning and I start with I love my bed. I love my bed. I truly love my bed. My bed’s there for me every day. It supports me. It makes me feel warm when I'm cold. I love it. Often, when we get back from holiday, I jump into bed at night and say I love you. And my husband says, I love you too and I go, “No, I'm talking to my bed.”

That's how I start. Then, I wiggle my fingers and I wiggle my toes. I love that I can wiggle my fingers and wiggle my toes. I stretch my body and I can feel all the muscles inside my body. I never used to be able to feel muscles inside my body because I didn't train before. Now that I started training, I feel all the different muscles in my body. I love that and then I'll get onto sticky things or like get onto colors or rainbows or the sun on my back or rain on it. I don't know where I'm going to go. I let my mind go where it wants to go. And I think of all the things I love, and they're not necessarily big things. People think it was supposed to be great. For the little things that are still going, that is still going to be there.

Feel a difference in your body

One of my clients can't do it that way. So, he spends five minutes with his dog in the morning. What we're looking for is a physiological change in the body. We're looking for you to feel a difference in your body from when you woke up to after you do whatever it is for you.

Some people use music, and some people use games. So, you got to find what works for you. What we're looking for is that physiological change in the body, that feeling of lightness.

Meggie: When you started making me do it, I thought it was a bit woo-woo and I was like, “Oh, so annoying.” But I started doing it and then you would check-in with me every week or every two weeks. And it's really made a big difference for me. What I do, and there's no right or wrong, is come up with three things. I just lie in bed in the morning. Get out of bed and just think about the three things. I don't write it down, it would be cool to write it down because then I'd have a list of a thousand things. But, I do highly recommend it.

At the moment Mary, a lot of people are scared. There's a lot of fear getting around. A lot of people are losing their jobs. There are a lot of tough things happening. So, what are your tips? Some people might say “gratitude is not going to get me a new job. Gratitude is not going to be able to like put food on the table for my kids.”

What are some great tips that might be helpful to people who are in a really tough spot?

Mary: We have this part in our brain called the reptilian brain. That's a part of our brain that says, fear. Many people would say it would be good if we didn't have that part in our brain. But, we do need that part in our brain because we do not want to walk over a cliff. We do not want to jump in front of a truck. that would be ridiculous. We need that deep part in our brain. But, the downfall of the reptilian part of our brain is that it stops us at anything it doesn't know the outcome of.

It puts in the fear space. Right now, we're in a real space of unknown. Nobody knows how long things are gonna go for nobody knows. That really happens. We are really in the unknown. So, the reptilian brain stops us. Our reptilian brain has two functions. Survival is a major function, but there have been two functions, breathing and eating.

While it's in survival mode, it is taking care of me and only me. The brain in the body works together to survive. So we don't have the patience. We think of ourselves. And that’s part of why people are going crazy about toilet paper and things like that. It is because they've tried to find something they can control, trying to find some certainty if they have enough. Even a toilet paper gives them the ability to feel a bit more comfortable.

What happens when we’re stuck in the reptilian brain

The challenge with that right now is that while we're stuck in the reptilian brain. We don't move into the other areas of our brain, to help us make decisions. It means that we cannot make informed, rational decisions. While we make decisions all from our reptilian brain, the irrational decisions are only based on survival. So, we can't access long-term use.

How will that help us if we're trying to go for a job? Imagine showing up for a job and you're facing people and your body is tense. You're freaking out because you're desperate to get a job. People smell fear. We are all noticing that there's a lot of fear. We can smell it, we can feel it. Whereas if you turn up to a job interview thinking: “I am grateful for the opportunity because this may be the place to take me to the next fantastic opportunity of my life.” The energy of it is completely different.

It isn't woo-woo. It is about how we feel about ourselves. I was talking to a photographer last week. She's in a challenge at the moment because she can't go out and take the photos. So, we're looking at how she can businesses pivot right now. I said to her, “What is the essence of the photoshoot? What's your why?” She said it's how I make people feel. I say, “we've got a great opportunity for you to go out to your database right now. You jump them on some zoom calls and start helping them be great to show up online. It is the same thing.”

Meggie: Moving from that, I can completely hear what you say because I think it's similar to confidence. And I think that if you walk into a job interview feeling like you're not good enough and that you're not going to get the job I feel that employers notice that. We know physiologically through Amy Cuddy's work and others that the body does have the capacity to change the way people perceive you.

If people are wanting to move from fear into gratitude or away from their reptilian brain, are there exercises they can do? Are there tips that people can put into practice?

What practice helps us move from fear into gratitude?

Mary: There’s one exercise that’s really, really powerful. It is what we call box breathing. The box breathing is we breathe in for the count of five. We hold for the count of five, we breathe out for the count of five, and we hold for the count of five. And we do that three times over. How are you feeling right now maybe not bad, but probably could be done?

Feel your body and let's give it a go.

Breathe for five.

Out for five.

In for five.

Hold for five.

Once more in five.

Hold for five.

Out for five.

How are you feeling your body now?

Meggie: I feel more zen. I feel like I literally almost lowered my heart rate a little bit.

Mary: So, that takes us straight out of a reptilian brain. That is an exercise to bypass our fear, our reptilian brain at any time. We can do that throughout the day when we're feeling fearful about anything. People are feeling fearful about jobs at the moment. People feeling fearful about money at the moment. People are fearing that family safety at the moment. This is a fast way to be able to pull yourself out of that and then you can make an important decision using the parts of your brain that are long term views and actually can make better decisions.

Meggie: That's awesome. What are the things that you hear from your clients that you're working with right now? In terms of how they're approaching these stressful situations, how do they view the Coronavirus? Whether it’s trying to reframe it as an opportunity, rather than focusing on the negative.

When approaching stressful situations, what have you observed from your community?

Mary: Most of my clients have doubled their sessions at the moment because they know that part of surviving and thriving in the current market is in the mindset. It's all in the mindset, how we show up whether we see a challenge or whether we see an opportunity. A lot of them have doubled the sessions. I am jumping on calls every single day at the moment with people who are very fearful at the start of the call. You can hear it in the wavering in the voice. You can hear it in the heaviness in them and we jump off the call 45 to 50 minutes later, they're lighter.

We also start to reframe how they're talking about things. So, if they're talking about the negative spaces or the negative things that are showing up, we reframe them. Like with the photographer, she was saying: “I can't see anyone face to face.” But I said you can still go out to a database and coaching them how to feel great to jump on these sorts of things. It's not about the makeup and the hair. It's really about the internal feeling. Because you can even feel if somebody is in fear, or if somebody is in a great mood on a platform like this.

How to reframe opportunities

The other thing that I'm talking about with nearly everyone at the moment is reframing opportunities. So, she's got a huge database and photographer, and a lot of her database shots are for dating platform. I said, “you've got to pivot in these times when we've got to stay visible and we've got to stay relevant”. I say, “why don't you run a zoom get together for all your people that have had the single-shot right now? They can’t go out.”

We've got a look outside the square. We've got a look. We cannot do business as we've always done business. For me personally, I'm loving this because I do a lot of breakfast meetings, a lot of lunch meetings, some dinner meetings. As my daughter says, “you know, mum, you go to breakfast, lunch, and dinner and you talk a lot of crap all day.” That's what she describes what I do. Right now, I can't go to the breakfast, the lunches, or the dinners. So, the driving time for me has disappeared.

A mortgage broker I was talking to the other day said that after four o'clock in the afternoon, he had four customers sign on all the paperwork. He did it on zoom with all the paperwork and got the paperwork signed off to be submitted to the bank. He never could have done it before if he was doing face to face as he only would have been able to in one night. So, there's a lot of revolutionizing with this digital age that we come and that he's here. And a lot of businesses won't go all the way.

If you’re grateful, you’re not fearful

Mary: If you're grateful, you are not fearful. We want to turn up every day being the best version of ourselves that we are. The model that this talk is about is the above the line and below the line model. It's about how much responsibility we take for what's happening in our world right now versus how much responsibility we blame on other people when we blame the external world or a person or a situation for how we think feeling right now, we take no responsibility and we cannot shift it or change it. The minute we take 100% responsibility, then now we have an option to make it mean something different and to be able to change it.

And a great example of this is about maybe four weeks ago now, my husband reversed my brand new Mercedes into a car in the car park. So he reversed out of the car space and a car going past him. So he beat himself up the whole night after it happened and there was barely any damage. I instantly went into gratefulness. I was grateful that there was barely any damage. It will buff it out. I was grateful I don't have to go through insurance at all. I was grateful that the guy that he said all good. Barely a scratch, shook hands and we're on the way.

So I instantly went into my gratitude practice but Derek beat himself up. He beat himself up that Sunday night. Monday, he came home. He's been at the company he's been working for nearly 25 years. He came home on Monday night and he said, I had the worst day at work in my whole entire life. I know that was because he was still beating himself up for what happened. And the crazy thing about it was he was trying to blame the other guy. He was saying, the other guy was driving too fast through the car, regardless of who's driving too fast through the car park. If you're the one reversing, you're the one at fault.

So while he sat, trying to blame the other guy for what happened, he kept taking up a huge chunk in his brain and ruining his whole time. It took him about a week and a half until he laughed. And then he said, I reverse out of the car park. It was totally my fault. And then everything eased away, and he was back to his normal, happy, jovial self. So how thinking takes us in and out of the space.

And another example of it is, we were driving out of our driveway. This is maybe even somewhere but like 12 to 18 months ago, and we're at the front of our driveway looking across the road and the people across the road, put a camera in on the front of the house, and I can either be the one above the line or below the line, or Derek can be the one above the line below the line, we will all spend time in each and that's normal. It's just about how much time we choose to spend below the line.

So I looked at the camera and I've done a complete breakdown. Oh my God, is that a camera? Does that take the front of our house? Is that an invasion of our privacy? Can that see through our bedroom? I was like, freaking out. Derek saw exactly the same, you know, object and he's like, it is a camera. It probably does take the front of our house and now cars will be protected. out the front. You know, we have six people living in this house, six cows, and four of them are across the front lawn every night.

Anyway, I didn't think I was ever going to be able to change my perspective about that camera. And within a week my son's car got broken into at the front of the house. And what did I do? Straight across the road to get the footage of what happened. Now, I am absolutely grateful for that camera being there. And you know, what, if they can see into my bedroom, lucky them.

Meggie: So what I'm hearing is that it's about reframing the way that you're viewing things. Is that kind of how you describe it?

How to reframe our perspective

Mary: Yeah, absolutely reframing how we're doing things. Yes, yes. So every time it's the perspective, so if you follow the works of Rene Brown, she talks about human beings being meaning-making machines. That's what we are meaning-making machines, and often what comes up first into our mind is, she calls it a shitty first draft. If we go back to high school or university and writing an essay, we've written the first draft of the essay. And then we rewrite and rewrite and go through it and usually be in a copy is nothing like the first copy.

If we think about it like that, what comes up is our shitty first draft. It's based on our defaults from our life. And it's based on the patterns in our thinking. And if it's not helping us in any way to move forward, we need to change that. So my shitty first draft about the camera was that it was an invasion of privacy.

My refrain was then that it's a great protection tool. So we can change everything. And either way, you know, people say but I want to know which one's right. There is no right. There's just lots and lots and lots of different ways. So if the way you're thinking about something is not making you feel good. Changes your shitty story and find a way to think about something that does make you feel good. And often you need to have assistance why people like you Meggie and people like me to help you be able to see a different perspective. Or for me with the car, it was an incident that helped me see a different perspective.

Meggie: I love that. Um, just before we wrap up, if anyone has any final questions, feel free to put them in the chatbox to me and we can ask Mary. But Mary if people want to keep in touch with you, what's the best way for them to reach out and just kind of follow the work that you're doing?

Mary: So they can join me on LinkedIn at as Mary Jensen. I'm also on Facebook, my business is on Instagram. I'm about to jump on a new platform because we're pivoting right now called TikTok so I'll be on Tick Tock by the end of the day and pump some videos out there. My Facebook page, my business page is Mpower Services. And I also have a personal page on Facebook and I would love everybody to connect because at the moment I'm going to be public Looking at everyday things to help us feel better in the current environment.

You can check out more info on Mary here.

Mary Jensen joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Gratitude. Join us for the Daily #PowerPepTalk by signing up for your invite to the live 15 minute...

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How Working From Home Disproportionately Impacts Women

PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke with Have Her Back Founding Partner, Caroline Dettman about reinventing and accepting work-from-home life. She talked about their study on #WFH trends and its disproportionate impact on women.

Meggie: Caroline, thank you so much for joining us for the Daily Power PepTalk. We're really looking forward to this. You are one of the founding partners from Have Her Back consultancy and you're going to be talking to us today about all things working from home and the new reality. How is your working from home experience going so far?

Caroline: It's a hot mess. You're talking to someone who, let's be honest, have been actually working from home a little bit, one to two days a week for 20 years. But certainly never, ever, under the circumstances that we all find ourselves in today if we are lucky enough to actually be able to work from home, without any of the resources that we've had, with all of our families slash partners slash pets and everything else that comes with it. So, it’s certainly a new day for all of us.

What do you think are the top pieces of advice that people can put into practice when working from home?

Caroline: I have to be honest. I think I'll tell you what advice that I'm still seeing and it's absolutely infuriating to me. I don't know if you would agree with this. This week, I saw an article saying to make sure that you're the most productive, make sure you have a separate space set up for working from home during COVID-19, that family members really understand. Apparently, those writers don't have small children or loot box apartments where that's just not an option anyway. It's not an option.

And you know what's funny from my own personal circumstance? I'm working from home full-time. My husband's lucky enough to be working full-time at home. He's got a loud booming voice which I don't think I realized so much until now. Then, we have three teenage boys who are home e-learning in our Chromebooks and doing their video chats or what have you.

Seven years ago, we moved to the suburbs. We were so excited to rehab an old home and we had this open concept. We were just so excited about it. Now, that open concept is not seeming like the best choice, the widest choice, not ideal, but it is the reality. And until the curve flattens, this is the situation that we're in.

What has helped you cope with the circumstances that you're in, given that your husband and three kids at home?

Caroline: What I've realized is we all have to lean into it. And actually, the best thing that we could ever be doing, first of all: these human moments can be really touching in a world with little actual touch these days. So, there's that nice part of the humanity of it. But more importantly, all the interruptions and all the disruptions that we're having in our day to day working from home is actually going to disrupt the workplace in the best way possible. It's going to help end some real biases that have really held particular women back in the workplace.

So, hear me out. I think the wonderful thing is, Have Her Back the consulting agency that I founded with my two partners, we actually did a study two weeks ago that really looked at this. We got to look at and talk to American workers at mid to large companies about what their companies are doing well for them, what they're not. We were able to really study this. So, this was a premise that we had.

The good news is that the results actually bore this out. I'll get into that in a little bit. But, I think to do that I've got a backup. I mean, I think first and foremost, like everyone else, day in, day out, you're on call after call after call, and everything from a cattail flying by.

My partner has a four-year-old and a one-year-old. You can just imagine we're on the call. We're on multiple calls every single day. Four-year-olds don't understand mommy's working now can you go do something else? They don't understand it. So, she often is disruptive. And I gotta be honest in the best possible way, if you are not too young enough to remember Jerry Maguire, it's literally like these moments where he comes bounding in and he's like the human. He says, “the human head weighs nine pounds.” And you're like, “Oh my god, this is amazing.” That's a reality that we're dealing with.

I have two teenage boys. I've got a loud husband. I've got a puppy who's 100 pounds, who needs a lot of attention so I'm often barked at. I'm often barked over, not just by my dog but also by my loud boys and husband. It's just the reality of what we're dealing with today. But as I mentioned, I've been doing this work from home, in some way, shape, or form for 20 years. And of course, I did that not in the situation that we're in now. I had my kids at school. My husband was not in the house working as well. So, it was probably a lot more efficient, yet, I always covered it up.

I always covered up the fact that I was working from home. That is because legitimately of caregiver bias that's a legit bias. And working from home is a legit bias. There was always this notion that “Oh if you didn't give that FaceTime that would hold you back.” Or that you weren't actually working when you were working from home. I often found myself covering up so I would be on calls. And when my kids were younger, if they were being loud, I would like to escape to the garage or anywhere that I could go to not admit that I was working from home.

I think, as women, there was that fear of discrimination and reprisal in the workplace. Maybe there was a lack of promotions if you publicly talk about the fact that you have children and that you have to juggle.

I worked to places that had remote working policies, yet I still felt a real need to cover up the fact I was doing it for those very valid reasons. I'm learning now and what I've done. In fact, even the zoom calls that I schedule in now, I'm often titling them: kids, partners, pets, all welcome. People need to understand that we all should be bringing our whole selves to work. We can't not right now.

Meggie: And it's not practical. I completely agree. I don't have children, but we had my nephews the other day looking after them. And it's kind of the same thing. All of a sudden, there's like running steps through the zoom call. So, I completely agree and I do. We're like, “well, that's just not gonna work.”

Do you think remote working is actually practical, as well as the right thing to do?

Caroline: I think longer-term right now, in the here and now, when you got all the schools that are essentially in e-learning mode. In fact, today, I saw the news about schools in Washington and in other places are actually gonna end early because e-learning’s not working. So, even if you have that small distraction for your kids, you're not going to have that necessarily. Right now, in the current circumstances, these distractions and interruptions are here to stay.

I think this is going to have a really good impact on the long term. Because men are experiencing caregiving, like working while parenting. When I say men, it’s at all levels. This includes the leaders who make the policies and enforce the policies. They are experiencing caregiving and parenting while working in ways that they never had before.

It's interesting when we did our study. Right now, all working parents are finding working at home while parenting difficult. That's not a shock. To some degree, everyone is finding it difficult but 31% of dads said it was extremely difficult, extremely difficult versus 14% of the moms. So, they're really feeling it. The other thing that's really interesting is that 38% of dads (this is a very high number) reported that they are the primary caregiver during COVID-19, which was surprising. It was higher than we would think.

I was surprised by this. But then of course, when you start to look into it, it's a lot because a lot of women are really on the front lines. They're the essential workers of healthcare. So, they're actually really having to go to work and a lot of men are really having to be the primary caregiver. But, even if you are sharing the caregiving, this is a new day for men. It's like what we call a nice way to earn empathy. They are really now understanding how hard it is.

Coupled with that, there is acceptance not even just an acceptance, but essentially a demand that remote working is here to stay right now. It will always be here to stay whether you don't have resources. We are going to get back to a time where schools are going to have to reopen in some way, shape, or form. And you will have resources to be able to do that. In the here and now, for remote working, everyone is saying, “Okay, this is something that we're going to need for the long term". So, there's an acceptance to remote working in ways that there weren't in the past.

We found that 87% of all workers expected to be able to work remotely way beyond this pandemic. That's everyone who felt that way. And so, because of that empathy, and also the acceptance of remote working, I think one of the most interesting and the most startling response that we got was that 90% of dads reported that women particularly after having children would benefit professionally and would climb the career ladder faster because of the acceptance of remote working.

Meggie: That's a real positive to come from this awful situation if we can move towards that transition way more?

Caroline: I was quite surprised but in a very good way. What's gonna be interesting for us, is we conducted this study a couple of weeks ago. We want to conduct it again. Can you just imagine with more time doing this under their belts, how it will continue to go forward?

I think the acceptance and the demands of remote working are really interesting. I think it likes to want to try to get this right. It was millennials, people of color, women, and all ranked the ability to work remotely going forward as the number one reason why they're going to switch their jobs. For your company right now, you have to be thinking about retaining and including more talent and this is going to be a huge way in which to do that.

Meggie: I couldn't agree more. To be honest, I think, a lot of men and women start their own company in the first place so that they have that flexibility and that capacity to steer the ship in their own direction. I think that is a great way. In terms of the cost of living, there are so many positives if you can be remote. At PepTalkHer, our team is entirely remote. We work across three countries and four time zones, which is always fun trying to work out the team meeting. But it's a small concession to have the team meeting at 6 pm or get up at 7 am for a meeting, if it means that for 365 days a year, you can essentially be working from wherever it's convenient for you and your family which is why I think of it this way.

Caroline: You were at the forefront of something. And now you are probably concerned expert in what every company is trying to harness and figure out right now which is such an incredible opportunity. I think it's wonderful. I think it's also incumbent upon us. This isn't just about working parents.

I think it's really important for everyone to welcome and encourage this right now, because of the long term impact that will have. It’s interesting. My husband, in one of the first weeks that we were working from home again, I overheard him. He was talking to a sports league executive and I overheard him saying very earnestly, “Hey, listen, go watch frozen with the girls. We can finish this conversation tomorrow.” And I thought to myself at that moment, that would have been unheard of prior to that. That would have been just an unheard-of way to end that conversation. And he earnestly meant it.

So, I actually made a point to say to him, I was so impressed with that. I think it's incumbent upon all of us to really share how much that means when you are working with colleagues or co-workers and they have their kids come in because you still feel the need. You want to cover it up just like that BBC dad. We all watched that. We were all hysterically laughing. We were all sharing that and we were all thanking God, it didn't happen to us. I think now we all need to encourage it because of the long term potential positive impact.

Meggie: This has been awesome, as always, talking to you. I'm so excited to read the rest of the study about working from home trends and how that's going to shift the trajectory of workforces all around the world.

You can check out Caroline’s awesome work here on Instagram & website.

For top tips and help on how to negotiate a raise, promotion, or salary increase, check out our PepTalkHer Cheatsheet or the tips on how to negotiate in times of uncertainty, like in a pandemic. 

Caroline Dettman from Have Her Back joins Meggie Palmer from PepTalkHer to discuss Girl Interrupted, Reinventing and Accepting #WFH Life. Join us for the Dai...

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