PepTalkHer Founder & CEO Meggie Palmer spoke to Former Obama staffer Lisa Gelobter from teQuitable about Managing Microaggressions. She talked on how to handle communication around microaggressions in the workplace. She also shared her story about Barack Obama asking her to go and work for him.
I have a degree in Computer Science. I'm one of the few black women. Unfortunately, that is true of and I've been fortunate enough over the course of my career to work on some pretty transformative technology. So, I was an engineer on something called Shockwave which was the first time that the web moved. I helped Hulu. I ran digital at BET, the television network- Black Entertainment Television, and then I worked at the White House under President Obama where I served as the chief digital service officer for the US Department of Education. Then, leaving that into the administration trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. I started teQuitable which is where I'm the CEO and founder.
Meggie: You used to work for Obama. What was that like? Tell us about the moment when he asked you to come and join his administration.
What was it like when Obama asked you to go and work for him at The White House?
Lisa: That was pretty remarkable. I grew up low-income in New York. It was not something you know. I wasn't like ‘when I grow up one day I'm gonna work at the White House, for the president, for the first black president.’ But it was a pretty incredible journey. I don't actually think I shared with you how it came to be.
It's an incredible story. So, I got a call. I'm sitting at my desk. I got a call from the White House asking me to come down for a roundtable. They were trying to figure out how they were gonna use technology to improve the way the government served the American people. And I was like, ‘sure!’ The White House Calls you, you say yes. But then they were hemming and they were hoying and I was like, ‘look I have a vacation plan. Once you get your schedule together let me know and I will let you know if I can come.’
But I had no idea like it was the office of the CTO that called. And so I did end up cutting my vacation short. I flew by just by day. I flew down to DC and it was a complete surprise. So, we walk into the West. It’s called the Roosevelt Room which is directly across The Office. But again, I know nothing about the government, the White House. The only reason I know that the West Wing is in the White House is that there was a TV show.
And so when I got there, it was the Chief Technology Officer of the United States of America, the Chief Information Officer, (I think) a deputy administrator of the Office of Management and Budget which apparently controls the entire federal government's purse strings. So again, I don't know. I'm like, ‘what's happening here?’ They take you to a room and there they close the door and they're like ‘surprise!’. This is actually a recruiting trip and I'm like, ‘I don't know what's happening.’
And then, they proceeded for the next 45 minutes to give us the literally the hardest cell you have ever seen. It's very like, ‘you will never have so much impact on your life... The president wants us to be part of his legacy.’ It's just this whole year. I don't know what is happening. I'm here for a roundtable? So, it was a lot.
Then the door opened and in walked the president. And this is how you know that I am a totally jaded New Yorker because he’s with a videographer and photographer and he goes around and he shakes all of our hands and I'm like ‘yeah! yeah! I get it a nice touch! It's a photo-op! like mm-hmm…’
Then, he sits down with us for 45 minutes and talks about it like ‘the government is bureaucratic but the White House isn't. I'm at the end of my second term. I care even less about breaking the rules like it's all like if I have to call your mother, your sibling, your child, I will.’ We all laugh and he's like, ‘I'm not joking.’ I mean it's everything.
And people asked me afterward like, ‘oh are you gonna do this?’ I think the President of the United States asked you to do something the only answer is ‘yes, sir!’ And I will say, it's one of those things. The story is amazing and I was so grateful to have that time, that opportunity to be personally recruited by the president. But, I will also say I don't tell that story very often because there's some level of - the president invited me like I was the asshole that didn't go do the good work until the president personally asked me to, right?
I got the department of education. There are people there who are brilliant who have worked there for eight years, 10 years, and 30 years and show up every single day and put one foot in front of the other because they're trying to make the world a better place for students. They're the ones that deserve the recognition, the credit, and the endless shine and the spotlight and it was that they show up and they do the work every day and have been for years. And so while my experience was incredible from my perspective, it was really those folks were the real heroes.
Meggie: That's so interesting and you're so humble to say that because those people that do that work every day absolutely deserve all the thanks and praise all the time. You did work over the White House, Obama did personally recruit you, what an amazing story! Thanks for sharing that with us. Can you also just give us some background? You mentioned earlier that you're one of the few women of color working in technology.
What was that like for you as a minority in your chosen career path?
Lisa: It's really interesting. There are a lot more people paying attention to that these days, and in the 80s there were actually a lot more women in computer science. By the time I came on, I was at the cusp of the digital age, the Internet age. Shockwave was right at the cusp when the internet went more mainstream, and so there was a little bit of a shift. There were definitely women in the industry before I got there, but there was less than the new technologies, the new orientation for the industry.
I have said I work in technology. I've worked in media entertainment. I worked in the federal government. I also have a random connection to USA Gymnastics because I'm a professional gymnastics photographer as well. And so it's just one of those things like all roads were clearly pointing towards this.
My experience has been the only there for my entire career. It manifests in so many different ways. It's literally been, except for my current company, I have literally been taken for the administrative assistant at every single organization I've ever worked at where I have been a vice president for going on 20 years now. And I don't dress pretty like I dress pretty business-y. I just get to a point where I take it as a compliment. It just means that I'm approachable and accessible and super-efficient and effective at doing my job.
“I have literally been taken for the administrative assistant at every single organization I’ve ever worked at where I have been a vice president.”
What is a microaggression? What are examples of microaggressions?
Lisa: A little bit of context, so the thing that I'm doing now is called teQuitable. It's a technology company using technology to make workplaces more equitable. And really our mission is about creating a work culture that's gonna work for everyone.
I started doing what one of the things would create this platform where people can come and figure out how to handle interpersonal conflict, workplace misconduct, or just get advice. It's a safe place where they can get advice if they're feeling uncomfortable in the workplace. And part of the reasons why we built this is we heard from so many people about like, ‘well, I don't know if this thing happening, like does it really cross a line? Is it just me? Am I being too sensitive?’
We actually help companies address issues from subtle to severe. It's not just, ‘my boss groped me in the bathroom’ but it's the more subtle, insidious death by a thousand paper cuts that really affect people's day-to-day work lives. So, it was one of those things like, ‘my boss tried to touch my dreadlocks or I'm always mistaken for the other person of my race in my building.’ But, it's really those things that are lacking, the people don't really talk about enough.
“I realized that there was something there about opening up these conversations, about talking about it out loud that gives it the space to be handled and dealt with. ”
It's around microaggressions. It's around this subtle, backhanded compliments and the reason it's so important is that I realized, I only talk about these things within my communities. I'm not talking to white women about the slights that happen to me because I'm black or light-skinned or whatever it is. I'm not talking to white men about my experience of having somebody stare at my boobs. Those are not things that I talk outside of my space and my people gave whatever the environment is. And I realized that there was something there about opening up these conversations, about talking about it out loud that gives it the space to be handled and dealt with.
It actually makes for a healthier work environment if we are addressing some of these things but there's clarity in there, the space around it.
If people are managing a team and haven’t had that experience of feeling objectified, what can they do to foster a workplace in a culture that is inclusive, safe, and open to feedback?
Lisa: Yeah, absolutely! The examples of what microaggressions look like especially its back-heading. The insidious part of it, it's those things like “oh you're being too sensitive about this, oh she doesn't really mean it like that.” And it's really about learning that it's about the impact, not the intention. It's not how it's received on the other end and so those are the things about, “oh you're black but you're so articulate, or you're too pretty to be an engineer, or you're a third-generation Asian American but you speak English so well.”
It's those kinds of things that really get into your psyche and there's a lot of stuff, there are resources that actually show that the insidious nature of it can be worse for the recipient of them. The more obvious aggressions, is you start to question yourself and all of a sudden like, “are you the person who's like challenging them?”, “oh, it was just a joke”, “oh you're taking it the wrong way.” Those kinds of things start to also make you question your response and your reaction to it.
So that's one of the things that we try to do. It is this platform where people can see themselves reflected. They understand that other people are going through these same things and so what can you do about it in your workplace, in your environment? I think it depends on what your role is. So, if it's happened to you, it really is about you. You can respond in a way that might be heard but where you still might feel safe. There's actually a ton of research that shows that if you say something that people will actually hear you and you can change people's behavior and again there's that balance about like putting the onus on the people who are feeling compromised.
You don't ask the homeless to solve world hunger, right? So there's something there about that balance. There's something about figuring out how to say something at the moment but you have to actually first figure out how you are going to feel about it, whether you think it will get heard or you think it will be received. There is of course, if you inadvertently said something or did something or that somebody interpreted or received in a way that they were offended by, you'd be surprised at how far an “I'm sorry” goes. It's also super hard to not be defensive- “but I didn't mean it that way.” How do you take a step back and let it wash over you and hear it and internalize it and understand that it really is about the impact that you may have had on somebody, whether it was intentional or not?
“There’s something about figuring out how to say something at the moment but you have to actually first figure out how you are going to feel about it, whether you think it will get heard or you think it will be received. ”
You can check out more info on Lisa here.